IFR routing question from KBKW to KDMW


#1

I would like the wisdom of those familiar with the area between these airports especially if there is an ATC controller checking this out…

Planning a flight on Saturday from KMBO to KDMW via stops at KMDQ and KBKW.

First two legs no brainers

KMBO to KMDQ GPS direct 7000 puts me below the floor of the Meridian MOA and above the Alert Area 440 of 6500 top part.

Second leg from KMDQ to KBKW, no airspace issues preventing me from GPS direct.

Third leg from KBKW to KDMW takes me through Evers MOA but keeps me clear of every other airspace (ADIZ and P40) issues enroute. This would be 200 miles as the crow flies or 1 hour 40 minutes at 7000 feet.

Via waytpoints determined by Voyager Freeflight planner, I would have to go the following route:

RNL V290 MOL V143 KERRE V3 MRB --> KDMW (surprised it didn’t route me via V166 to EMI to KDMW) Time to take this rout will be 247 miles or 2:05 minute flight. (25 minute extra flight!)

I went to go buy enroute maps at my local airport and CFI said new ones are coming out Wednsday, so I don’t have the Evers MOA to check into, but AOPA flight planner says “no information available” I will be picking up these IFR enroute maps Wednesday to study the MOA and hopefully will be more informative then AOPA.

Soooo, hoping somebody has experience with this area / route, is there any chance of GPS direct or am I wishing upon a falling star?

Would one file GPS direct if you were in my position? Would it be unreasonable to file KBKW direct Kerre V3 MRB --> KDMW? This would cut a bit corner and would keep me clear of the Evers MOA.

I fully understand i can file what I want, but I’d like to get cleared as filed rather then futz around flying the plane and reconfiguring my flight plan enroute if at all possible.

Last time I was up that way, I had filed from KBLF to KDMW and got the following routing MRB V166 EMI to KDMW. See flightaware.com/live/flight/N194 … /KBLF/KDMW so mentally in my mind I am kinda expecting the same.

Being that it’s Saturday and I plan to be up that way in the early afternoon, will that increase my chances of GPS direct?

ANY words of wisdom MUCHO appreciated.

Allen


#2

Allen,

Check out SKYVECTOR. On the right side of the page, look for the “Airport/VOR/Fix” data field and type-in BOIER (a fix inside Evers MOA), and you’ll see the MOA on a sectional chart. I know it ain’t the eroute view you’re looking for, but hopefully it’ll be better than nothing for you.

Seems to me that I saw another online chart viewer that has lo-alt charts, but if I’ve got it bookmarked, then it’s on my computer at work. Will post a link to it tomorrow if I can find it.

Hope it helps…


#3

NeedleNose

'preciate the link. This is the first time I have actually used this website in the fashion you showed me, so like you said, not what I need, but it sure is something good for future flights!

Going on memory, since I am at work, I remember seeing V128, and if I remember correctly the “Minimum Enroute Altitude” was extremely high. The problem is that on IFR flights, if the MOA is hot, I won’t be routed through it anyway. (at least this has been my experiences with the Meridian MOA near me).

However, if the published hours are on the chart (online or paper), I will know what to expect before getting there as my experiences with FSS is they don’t know when MOA’s are hot or not.

Look forward to it if you have it. Never enough resources to look / see when planning. :slight_smile:

'preciate you helping!

Allen


#4

I would go ahead and file direct the entire route. Your departure controller shouldn’t be familiar with the Evers MOA and will likely clear you as filed. The controller for the airspace around Evers will amend your clearance to avoid the MOA or you can request vectors or a temporary change of heading to fly around it. If the controller’s busy, or you’d prefer to file Victor Airways, you could go direct to ELK (elkins VOR), V4, V166 KDMW. That’s a bit out of the way, but should also avoid all airspace. A guy I work with has routine trip from Hagerstown east. Usually files direct through a MOA, but gets the route amended once he clears the departure area. Or, with the GNS 430, you could file waypoints…


#5

Oh…

Check the AFD for any preferred routes. That’s almost a sure way to be cleared as filed.

I’ve also been cleared direct through a cold MOA on an IFR flight plan.

Good Luck


#6

Well, as it turns out, the site I have linked here at the office is the one I gave you last night. I KNOW they used to have enroute charts before, but dang if I can find 'em there now…


#7

myairplane.com/databases/approach/index.php

Low Alt IFR enroute charts. Navigating the zoom and pan is a royal PITA, though.


#8

UPDATE on the above. Got the enroute charts…

Evers MOA is Cont by NOTAM days from 1000 AGL to FL 18,000

Reading the above, I take it ABSENCE a NOTAM, the MOA is not hot?

Am I reading that correctly.

I went to pilotweb.nas.faa.gov/geo/flightPathForm.html and pulled up the NOTAMS from KBKW to KDMW, did a search for Evers and didn’t see NOTAM referring to the EVERS MOA.

This may seem like a basic question, but I have never encountered it before, want to be sure I understand what I am reading. A dumb question is the unasked question.

Rather look “dumb” here then around the Evers MOA :slight_smile:

If my thoughts are correct GPS direct looks promising, unlike the weather which is calling for snow showers, which pretty much will squash this flight as I will be in visible moisture in below freezing temps.

Early indications are that it’s suppose to be a convective type snow rather then stratiform, which means my poor lil Sundowner won’t be able to muster the altitude to get above the clouds over the mountains.

Allen


#9

That’s pretty smart thinkin’! :mrgreen:


#10

Unfortunately, this turns out to be more complicated than it should be. First, you may recall from your training that it is perfectly legal for a VFR flight to go through a active MOA. As pilot in command, it is up to you to decide about the safety of that flight. IFR flights can be legally directed through a hot MOA by ATC if ATC can ensure separation, however my experience is that they typically will steer you around it.

As to finding out by NOTAM whether a MOA is acitve, I have been told by FSS that they do not get current information and that the controlling ATC is the only place to get up to date info. You can call ATC on the phone, but they may get short notice from the military, so the answer can change between the time you call and when you get to the MOA.

As a practical matter, I check on the web before I depart (don’t have the web site with me, but it may be tfr.faa.gov), then call ATC enroute and ask them.


#11

You are so right. While I won’t be doing the flight due to weather considerations (freezing level will be too low), still a good discussion so we can learn from each other.

I had planned to file GPS direct and ask for vectors should a reroute be requested rather then Victor airways.

The victor airways was just too far out of the way to be mucking around in mountains. Deviating any distance left or right of my course line will change the OROCA which means I would have to change altitudes.

If I had to be rerouted via Victor airways then I would have done so as safety is paramount. Just trying to shave off 25 minutes flight time.

Forecasted weather is not condusive for VFR flight so cancelling IFR does not look like an option.

As you know TFR’s are a whole different breed of airspace issues as compared to an MOA.

It’s very possible to transit a TFR as long as you are sqawking and talking, but more often then not, especially the presidential ones, you will be routed around the TFR.

That’s the beauty of IFR, in that there is no “accidental” TFR penetrations.

Now, the question that I asked is still outstanding.

If I see a MOA cont by NOTAM, am I safe to understand that the MOA is NOT hot if I do not see a NOTAM for IFR or VFR flight planning purpose. (See above link I provided that gives all NOTAMS for route of flight)

I fully understand what you are saying about the short notice routine so what’s not hot now may be when I arrive at that airspace.

Allen


#12

I wasn’t in a position to check the url and got it wrong. The correct one is sua.faa.gov. It will show you the military and other airspace schedules.

The legal answer to your question is yes, it is not planned to be hot if a) there is no NOTAM and b) it is not during the normal posted hours of operation, but this information is only correct at the time you check and subject to change without notice. However, I have been told by FSS that they usually do not get a NOTAM on military airspace and they advised me to call (on the ground or in the air) the controlling agency directly. I don’t know if this varies by geography.

So the practical answer is still to flight plan using the NOTAMs (which your local FSS probably will not have) and then check with the controlling ATC prior to entering the MOA (and during flight planning if you want to have a better idea). Even if they say it is cold, it is still advisable to keep your head on a swivel when you enter as it could go hot after you enter or ATC might not have current information.


#13

Thanks for answering my original question!

In regards to ATC and military coordination, since I would be IFR, coordination, between ATC and the military in keeping my airspace clear should it go hot while in it? Otherwise, ATC would never route traffic through a MOA.

With the forecast it being what it is, I’d probably be IMC anyway, so all the swiveling in the world probably wouldn’t help.

I’d agree with you if I was doing flight following VFR, but I was planning IFR.

Heck, I have a terrible time spotting a slow Cessna, much less a slim and fit F15 :slight_smile:

Allen


#14

Any military jet you encounter will have on board radar, so regardless of ATC’s involvement, they should be well aware of your presence.

I was VFR in an MOA last week doing maneuvers and a couple f-16’s did a fancy little ditty right in front of us then shot a flare our way… Strangest thing I’ve ever seen. Then they took off. Saw them a bit later heading home. They definitely saw us well before we saw them.