Is seniority killing the airline industry?

Aviation Airlines
1

I am posting this because I am currently in a situation that involves my seniority.

Here is the beginning to the discussion from a net:

**"An article appeared online (USA Today’s Today in the Sky), where an interesting point is raised:

'Employees should have the right to move within the industry should their carrier cease to exist. Seniority should not be a shield for some to hide behind. Rather it should promote stability for those experienced workers that choose to offer their services for hire in an open market."

It goes on by suggesting:
‘it is high time that organized labor puts down its swords and constructs a national seniority list’

I think that there are plenty of pilots / flight attendants out there, if they could retain their seniority, would leave where they are and apply with other carriers if they could ‘bridge’ their seniority.

What does everyone think?
the link to the article is here:**"

usatoday.com/travel/fligh… … 85097.blog
and the link to the business week article is here:
businessweek.com/lifestyl… … ty_ki.html

Ok so here is why this is near and dear to my heart at the moment. We at FX are non-union (for the time being) except our flight crews. That said I believe I have mentioned in other postings that we operate at times as if we ARE unionized just because when it matters in terms of schedule selection and vacation management gives senior staff cherry days off and on down. Same with vacation, senior bid first and thus get the week of Christmas… you see where I’m going. NOW, I transfer to my new station, company time uninterupted and am “Locked” in a schedule for 6 months during such time should a better more “Cherry” day off pair come open someone be they junior to me would be given the shift. Currently Sun. evening, which is a ball breaking shift is part of my week. I’d love to have it off, and sign up for the ot should I choose to. Currently 5 people with less company time then myself have Sun. off. 2 people senior to me also work Sunday. IMHO 3 of the 5 should be re-assigned and myself and the 2 senior people given the Sun. off.

I would not be in a fit over this if one of the people with Sunday off didn’t get in my face about how “I should not be allowed to bid on even vacation for 6 months since you just got here” To which I replied about total time… This same person called out sick this Sunday since her boyfriend (jr. to me) had off and had not signed up to work, then he called out yesterday since she had off…then this morning I notice a bit of sun burn on the cheeks…guessing the beach is the spot to go recoup when you’re ill?! :imp: When I mention to my manager that next time the schedule is made, I’d like Sun. off. He tells me “You’ve got to be here 2 years” now I don’t know if he’s kidding but if he isn’t I’m saying to myself WTF :imp: :imp:

Proceed to flame, agree, give opinions. I did not get the nod for the TOTAL time I’d been in the airline industry when I got hired, someone with no experiance starts the same as someone like me who got there with almost 14 years ramp time. Not to mention the trouble with merit raise system is you will NEVER earn the PERFECT score in order to make the MAX % increaase to your pay, it is like hunting for a unicorn they and it doesn’t exsist. :wink:

P.S. I did read the entire thread, and the article…interesting stuff.

2

What is FX?

3

Sorry…FedEx…now I’m sure the next comment will be “wouldn’t that be FE?” Yes but I put FX hence my screen name my station I worked at, an a/c I enjoy working and FX for FedEx :wink:

4

Seems obvious now but I never could figure out what all that meant.

5

FedEx’s code use to be FM.

A person with high seniority doesn’t necessarily mean that person is better at his job than one with lower seniority. It just means that he’s been at it longer.

That said, I think in most cases a person with high seniority is better than the person just starting in most cases.

I think a person should be promoted based on his work and not his seniority. So if a person changes from Airline A to Airline B and is better at his job than a person with the same or higher seniority then that transferee should be given the promotion.

Of course, with unions that will never happen.

6

So I ask you dami, should experiance dictate work schedule? If that is the case in my situation I would have a huge leg up on the people who have the days off I would want. As I said WHEN IT MATTERS to our managers they look at seniority, otherwise they just do as they please…just like every other non-union orginization.

7

You didn’t ask me, but hey, that hasn’t stopped me from voicing my opinion :stuck_out_tongue:

You ask a very sticky question that really crosses both union and non union environments.

Handling of transferrees from one office to another, I have seen it handled different ways by different managers in the very same office over a period of time.

While unionization does help “standardize” (for lack of a better term) the process of seniority “benefits”, where there is a will, there is a way to circumvent the rule.

I personally don’t like the idea of a person transferring into my office with more experience trumping my seniority in my own office. I am showing my dedication to my office by staying years and years at a time while the rest of the office turns over. Why should I lose my seniority to a person who “moves”?

If I am number one for choosing time off, it should remain this way no matter what the new person’s time and experience is. It was his (or her) choice to make a move, and part of that choice should be “meld” into the current seniority structure of the new office based on reporting date to that office, not barge to the top of the line. I have seen it work this way, and I have seen it where the transferred person moves to the top. Both are right “in it’s own way”.

What you describe is the precise reason I never did and never will get into a management position. It’s stuff like this (which is important for moral) that does seem to get in the way of the productive side of getting work done since this builds dissention in the office / work environment.

Is there a generic right answer. Probably not…

9

If by experience you mean seniority, I think that’s one way of determining work schedules.

When it comes to promotions, I think seniority should not be as big a factor as the person’s skills.

I can understand this. I wouldn’t like it either.

However, just because a person comes in from another office doesn’t mean he’s an outsider. It’s all the same company regardless of location. And if the company basis everything on seniority then I really don’t have much to say about it.

10

No harm no foul, after all at the end of my op I did say flame, comment…

I see your points but as a corporation the rules as they are written dictate I have seniority period. I was given the oppertunity to choose vacation time ahead of others as a result of this, which I defirred since I didn’t know when I wanted to take off, thus allowing these 2 particular people who seem to feel I should fall behind them, to bid. What triggered my anger was when I went to ask if they were set on the week they bid because I wanted to know if they would swap for the following week. I was told I should be behind them…

It would be one thing if during the entire time I’ve been with the company I stayed stagnant and not moved into another department and aquired more skills…but at the end of the day, I really have NO recourse in anything to do with my schedule, our manager sets it and that is it. Oh yeah, and since comeing here in the week before and in just the last month 2 people SENIOR to me have come and they have also been scratching their heads. The company / manager posted a need for staff at his station, yes we choose to come here BUT it was by THEIR request. 8)

11

Here is the thing, at a contract handler like a Swissport or something like that skill set does play heavy into what you can command from $ to schedule… At an airline be they union or non, you are not just going to come in and command a schedule…which isn’t what I’m trying to do…just hint at it :wink:

Where a union would help in this matter is to show the ding dongs who think they know everything there is to know about airline operations from the 13 months they have been with the company that, hey this person(s) have more time with the company THEY by rules agreed by the company and union get a schedule you can not have…yet. Does that make sense? Or am I still groggy from getting up at 0130!!! :confused:

12

Something else to consider is where the transfers came from. It may sound silly to those that don’t live here, but in the south they don’t take kindly to yankees and they take care of thier own. I found this to be the case when I first moved here. JMHO.

13

Funny you mention that, when I lived here before from '97-'01 and started working back at Signature, a co-worker came up to me and started yapping about “Damn yankees…” I had to remind him the capitol of the south was Richmond which is the capitol of the state I moved from… But I get it. :wink:

14

Hmm, maybe I am missing something in my intepretation from the above so bear with me.

You had the first pick on vacation time
You deferred
2 other people stepped up to the plate and selected days
You now want to go back and pick those days?

Again, I might be missing something but if what happened is how I describe it above, then it doesn’t sound like the process you are experiencing is broke. It would seem to me, if my above description happened, I would agree with management that you would be behind them since you deferred on the first go round.

Have you (can you) work with the employees to swap days with of course approval from management?

15

The idea of airline crew training/scheduling is to have interchangable players so that skill level is (theoretically) equal across the board i.e., a captain is a captain, an FO is an FO…and it does not matter whose butt fills the seat.
That being said, in order to avoid unfair treatment for arbitrary reasons a seniority system is an equitable way to decide how the pie is sliced and who gets the first slice.
It also rewards loyalty to the company. While certainly junior members on the list do not like it but the beauty of seniority in an industry with a mandatory retirement age is that sooner or later everyone has the opportunity to move up and receive the preferential consideration that they have earned.

Just like someone once said of democracy- it is a terrible form of government but it is better than anything else out there.

16

In the case of the vacation, yes I can ask an employee if they wish to swap weeks. I did not need to in the end, I was able to get something worked out with another week.
As for the days off as I said we all are at the mercy of the managers.

17

Well said sir.

18

Well golly gee, almost sounds like you are describing TSA :stuck_out_tongue:

Just messing folks, keep this on topic and not about TSA!!!

19

so get this, just this morning one of the people who have an issue with being jr. to me comes and asks why would they be bumped down the line in a bid they put in to move to the ramp? I told them others might have bid from outside since it was posted corp. wide. They said they did not agree with that idea it should have been internal. I said it might have come down from a higher then local position that the positions be posted for everyone…cry, cry, cry is almost a daily thing with this guy.

I was thinking about something while I was resting from my early start again this morning. As someone who is familiar with “Quality” management i.e. ISO 9001. We do on a daily basis get monitored as to our scan rates…and are told the following day if anyone was able to meet those goals. This ability can not be done in any other area of our operation there at the airport. At IAD, we were encouraged to place our emp. number and container number we were offloading on paper so managers could go check out put from how fast you were getting freight onto the belt for disbursement into the building.

I guess what I really need to do is cornor my manager and see just exactly how schedules are given out here. If seniority for some crazy reason doesn’t dictate it then it explains the fact no one has filled the openings posted throughout the company, where would be the enticement to transfer? This in my opinion where again I say a union makes sense. It keeps idiots like jr. know it all in check.