Wow! airline pax versus GA


#1

Airport plays message blaming GA aircraft for delays

aero-news.net/index.cfm?Cont … fd0c74c13&


#2

well, at airports where GA and commercial have to share a single runway and runway capacity is an issue, then yes, GA aircraft DO cause more delays.


#3

How often does something like this happen at…say…KHPN?


#4

Depends on day and time of your flight at KHPN or other mixed use airports. If it’s Tuesday morning at 8 am, there are more airliners than corporate. If you’re in a turboprop, you’re probably waiting for the 2 or 3 airline jets to depart. If it’s 5pm on Thursday or Friday (especially in the summer), then your airliner is number 20 for takeoff, waiting in line just like everyone else. The claims of the airlines that GA causes significant delays at major airports is a load of crap. KATL, KMIA, KLGA, KJFK, et al. see such a small number of corporate aircraft that there is no way the airlines could truly defend their position.


#5

Given the type of money that supports Aspen…it’s the airlines that are causing the delays there…


#6

well, at airports where GA and commercial have to share a single runway and runway capacity is an issue, then yes, GA aircraft DO cause more delays.

I disagree. First off, the big airports with the delays are so delayed that GA avoids them. And at the big airports, air traffic control generally gives the nod to the AIRLINES over GA. That means, they will sometimes let an airliner depart instead of GA. So to me, that is clear that it is the airlines that are delaying the GA at big airports. To iterate though, there is very few GA traffic at the airport’s most delayed airport. Now yes, GA contributes to GA delays but do very little.


#7

Absolutely :exclamation: And the primary reason that HPN has developed the airline traffic it has, is because the airlines have saturated and delayed themselves out of LGA, JFK, EWR…


#8

I’m with you, I’m both a 13 year airline (ground ops) veteran, and a general aviation pilot, so I sit on both sides of the fence. However, this is a load. By in large, airports that have ‘delays’ don’t have much in the way of GA traffic, MDW comes to mind, but they usually use runways dedicated to GA aircraft such as the little 31L ??(help) and in STL it’s 31. It amazes me, right after 9/11 ORD reduced its sked by 30%, both UA and AA. Now it’s just as bad, I don’t know how much of that capacity has been regained since, and now w/ the RJ traffic that may skew things, but to most destinations there aren’t as many departures as there once were. Even if they are reduced to RJs most city pairs have fewer flights. Pre 9/11 ORD was also served by many turbo prop flights. This at an airport that has next to NO GA ops.


#9

What’s the big deal about Aspen? Is it any different than say Penn State (UNV) on a game day when you need to coordinate an arrival time? If the problem is just runway utilization, then you’d think Aspen could anticipate high volume days during the season and juggle its traffic better. According to the article, the FAA spokesman acknowledged that Aspen did not have slot restrictions in force that day, and notwithstanding the delays he said this was not the cause. Something does not add up.


#10

Aspen is a very difficult airport. The runway is surrounded by mountains. It has only one runway. It’s not your average flatland airport.

Look at these remarks for ASE from flightaware.com/resources/airport/KASE (emphasis is mine)

THIS AIRPORT HAS BEEN SURVEYED BY THE NATIONAL GEODETIC SURVEY.
ARPT CLSD 2300-0700.
TERRAIN WILL NOT ALLOW FOR NORMAL TFC PATTERNS. HIGH RATES OF DESCENT MAY BE RQRD DUE TO TERRAIN & LOCAL PROCS.
ARPT LOCATED IN HIGH MOUNTAIN VALLEY WITH MOUNTAINOUS TERRAIN FROM 12500 - 14000 FT MSL IN NEAR PROXIMITY TO ARPT;
NUMEROUS UNLIGHTED OBSTRUCTIONS. ALL ADVERSE WEATHER SITUATIONS MAGNIFIED IN MOUNTAINS. OPERATIONS DURING PERIODS OF REDUCED VISIBILITY DISCOURAGED FOR PILOTS UNFAMILIAR WITH AREA.
UNCONTROLLED TRAFFIC ON THE RAMPS. RY 33 RUN-UP AREA NOT VISIBLE FROM ATCT.
FOR ALL GA OPNS BTWN 30 MIN AFT SS TO 2300 THE FOLLOWING APPLIES: ACFT EQUIPPED AS RQRD UNDER FAR 91.205(D) FOR INST FLT - PILOT IS INST RATED; VFR PIC HAS COMPLETED AT LEAST ONE TKOF OR LDNG IN THE PRECEDING 12 MONTHS AT ASE. IFR: EXECUTE APCH/DEP PROCEDURES WITH ATC CLNC.
STAGE II/III ACFT ONLY FROM 0700 TO 30 MIN AFT SS BY COUNTY ORDINANCE. STAGE III ACFT ONLY FROM 30 MIN AFT SS TO 2300. NO DEPS AFT 2230. ALL STAGE I ACFT OPNS PROHIBITED; VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED.
UNIQUE VFR DEP PROCEDURES EXIST. CALL AMGR 970-920-5384; OR FBO 970-920-2016 FOR MORE INFO.
(A106) ACFT REQUIRING IFR SHOULD FILE FLIGHT PLAN WITH FLIGHT SERVICE 45 MIN PRIOR TO ESTD DEP.
UNLESS CEILINGS ARE AT LEAST 2000 FT ABOVE HIGHEST TRRN & VIS IS 15 MILES OR MORE; MOUNTAIN FLYING IS NOT RECOMMENDED.
TKOF NOT AUTHORIZED ON RY 15 WITHOUT WRITTEN PERMISSION FM AMGR.
ARPT RESTRICTED TO MAXIMUM ACFT WINGSPAN OF 95 FT.
REVIEW OF AIRPLANE PERFORMANCE RCMDD INCLUDING DA; WEIGHT & BALANCE AND CLIMB PERFORMANCE.
HANG GLIDERS; PARA GLIDERS; HOT AIR BALLOON & GLIDER OPNS ON & INVOF ARPT UP TO 18000 FT MSL.
NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES IN EFFECT; CTC AMGR 970-920-5384.
FBO REQUIRES 4 HRS ADVANCE NOTICE FOR STAGING ACFT PRIOR TO DEP.
DUE TO HIGH APCH MINIMUMS PILOTS MAY NEED AN IFR ALTERNATE EVEN THOUGH WEATHER IS FORECAST TO BE HIGHER THAN 2000-3.
THIS RUNWAY EXISTS TO SUPPORT THE PKN LDA ASSOCIATED WITH THIS AIRPORT.
RY 15 PAPI UNUSABLE BYD 4 NM FM RY THLD & BYD 7 DEG RIGHT OF RY CNTRLN.
WHEN TOWER CLOSED ACTIVATE MALSF RY 15, PAPI RY 15 AND REIL RY 33 - CTAF.
EXISTED PRIOR TO 1959.
TPA FOR LIGHT ACFT 1185 AGL; TPA FOR HEAVY ACFT 1685 AGL.


#11

I disagree. While Aspen is in a valley surrounded by high peaks, that is no different from many, many other small high altitude airports and does not make it particularly difficult. The real issue with Aspen during busy weekends is that there are many private aircraft all trying to arrive and depart during the same few hours and that sometimes causes delays. However, that has nothing to do with the delays at the major airports, where the ratio of private to commercial aircraft is very low. In those airports, it is the commercial flights all trying to arrive and depart during the same time windows that accounts for the delays.


#12

That is one of the most major reasons why there are delays. Not that BS about those business jets jamming up the runways and not paying their fair share as the Airline Transport Association says.

Come on, airlines! You schedule a two dozen flights to depart between 0700 and 0705. Guess what? Ain’t gonna happen - some of those flights will be delayed.


#13

The big deal with ASE is that its arrival/departure flow pattern is not like normal airports, where the flow is in the same direction using the same runway. Because of the terrain, aircraft land on RWY 15 and depart the opposite direction on RWY 33…see the conundrum?

Telluride is the same way…


#14

It’s always nice to be in the first couple taking off in a line of planes. Anyway, I agree. The hub is great because I can get off my flight and connect to another flight in less then hour. The problem is that there are over 50 flights (at some airports) departing in a short period in these flight banks. And if my flight is delayed 3 hours, then maybe it is better not to have flight banks. It really makes the hub and spoke system unattractable and a point to point system look great.


#15

You mean like Southwest’s route system?


#16

Don’t start that again …


#17

Huh?


#18

There was a discussion a while back about Southwest and its route system. Some people refused to believe me that Southwest does not have a hub-and-spoke system. They refused to believe even when I quoted verbatim from Southwest’s annual reports that they have a network system.

They were saying that Southwest does have a hub-and-spoke system because several cities have so many flights to them (e.g. LAS, OAK, BWI, MDW). Their proof was that some cities such as ALB had the majority of connecting flights at only one or two airports.

Besides the documents I quoted, I also pointed out that in a true hub-and-spoke system, there were limited connecting airports. In Southwest’s case, not being hub-and-spoke, you could just likely change aircraft at a smaller airport as at a larger airport.


#19

Thanks

I think that Southwest is mostly point to point. I do they think they operate somewhat of hubs at LAS and MDW, as if I am right, they connect a lot of people at those airports.

My question: Does a point to point system save money over a hub(s)? I mean they are more efficient but would also require more airplanes.


#20

The full discussion is in this thread: discussions.flightaware.com/viewtopic.php?t=4426

Here is one excerpt, from Southwest’s own annual report, that says they are a hybrid of point to point and hub and spoke:

  • “Southwest focuses principally on point-to-point, rather than hub-and-spoke, service”. Note the use of the word ‘principally’, which means chiefly or mainly, but does not mean exclusively. So even Southwest recognizes that there is some amount of hubness in their route structure.
  • 21% of Southwest passengers make a plane change to get to their final destination, which is the type of routing that Allen mentioned.
  • Using Dami’s definition of hub (Strategically located airport or city where a carrier’s major facilities and operations are housed), you would have to call Dallas Love field a hub as their corporate headquarters, maintenance and high frequency of flights (30 daily between Dallas and Houston alone) are all located there.