Wow! airline pax versus GA

Aviation Aviation News
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How do you figure that Southwest recognizes “there is some amount of hubness (sic) in their route structure” from the fact that 21% of their passengers make connections?

You can make a connection in over half of the cities served by Southwest. Here’s connecting cities I found in just a few minutes of searching the 4 April schedule:

ABQ AUS BNA BOI BUR BWI CMH DAL DEN GEG HOU LAS LAX LIT MCI MCO MDW OAK OKC OMA ONT PDX PHL PHX PIT RDUE RNO SAN SAT SEA SEA SJC SLC SMF STL TPA

That’s over half of the cities served by Southwest. What airline has hubs in over half of their cities?

Yes, you are more apt to connecting in some cities than others but that’s only because there are more flights to those cities.

If you are going to quote me, quote me correctly. You said I said

  • Using Dami’s definition of hub (Strategically located airport or city where a carrier’s major facilities and operations are housed)

No, I was quoting howstuffworks.com and disenchanted.com web sites. In the same discussion, I said "A true airline hub is an airport where you get a whole mess of flights in AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME and then they all leave AT ABOUT THE SAME TIME. There is not a single airport where Southwest does this. " On thing I would add is that the rest of the time (i.e. outside of the flight banks), the airline is all but non-existent at the airport.

22

Dami-

Since everyone can read the thread for themselves, why do you feel compelled to rehash it again? Do you think that you will convince everyone that you are right this time when you didn’t last time? The facts have not changed. As quoted from their own annual report, Southwest understands, even if you don’t, that they are a mix of point to point and hubs.

23

Jagona didn’t know what you were talking about (“Don’t start that again …” is what you said and jgona answered “hah?”).

An airline with hubs routes passengers through hubs. As I showed earlier, on Southwest there are connection possibilities available at over half of the cities the airline serves. So, using your logic that 21% of the passengers make connections then Southwest must have hubs at over half of its airports.

Back in the pre-deregulation days, most airlines were network airlines. Like Southwest today, there were some cities where many connections could be made but there were also many smaller stations where connections could also be made.

Look, caflier, how the hell you went from 21% of the passengers make connections to the airline has a hub-and-spoke system is way beyond me. The airlines with hub all have the majority of passengers passing through hubs. When I went to school, 21% was no way close to a majority.

If you are so darn assured that you are right, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to right Southwest Airlines (Southwest Airlines, P.O. Box 36647 - 1CR, Dallas, Texas 75235-1647) and ask them clarify if they are a network or hub-and-spoke airline. Ask them if they have any hubs. I would write but I don’t feel like wasting a stamp, envelope, and paper on questions I already know the answer to. That answer is exactly what you quoted it yourself from the Southwest annual report). I don’t think you have it in you because you know that I am correct.

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I’d suspect the folks in ALB **and many other airports **that SWA serves that have to be routed through hub airports I mentioned in the other thread would disagree.

I’d think the proof would be on you to prove that you are right. As of now, you have not.

I, myself gave you the Webster definition of a hub in the previous thread. Are you saying that Southwest trumps Wesbsters definition of a hub just because they say so in their annual report?

I, myself gave you airports in the previous thread on the SWA network don’t have the benefits of a point to point route as you said. They go through hub airports.

All you have said was what SWA quoted in their business practice, which in my opinion does not trump Webster in defining words such as a definition of a hub. I don’t know about you, but I don’t go looking up the meaining of words at the SWA website, I use Websters or something equally credible my looking up definitions of words.

When I look at the SWA route map, it sure doesn’t look much different then Delta, USAir, or any other airline you select. They all (route maps that is) in these pair of eyeballs look to me in that they route flights through major cities which based on Websters definition sure would meet the definition of a hub.

As I previously mentioned in the prior thread, that map sure looks like lots of spokes and wheels and probably the majority of the people who look and compare these maps to other airlines probably would agree with me.

Allen.

25

You know what? Go ahead, Allen, caflier, and others - believe what you want. Live in your dreamworld. I don’t really care anymore. I KNOW I am correct. I have offered evidence. If you don’t like the evidence then YOU prove to ME by hard evidence, namely, something direct from Southwest Airlines that contradicts the wording in their documents filed with the SEC.

Read the Official Southwest Blog on the subject of hubs.

Here’s what it says at Merriam Webster dictionary (highlighting by yours truly)

1: the central part of a circular object (as a wheel or propeller)
2 a: a center of activity : focal point
b: **an airport or city through which an airline routes most **of its traffic
c: a central device that connects multiple computers on a single network
3: a steel punch from which a working die for a coin or medal is made

Notice the airline definition says “most of its flights.” Southwest does not route “most of its flights” through any airport. American, Delta, and others do.

Why don’t you compromise and call them connection cities rather than hubs?

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Ok , so the whole arguement is…us little Warrior and Skyhawk drivers are clogging up the airspace at airports with major air service. I think maybe they’re more concerned about the Lears and Citations etc? BUT…

as mentioned in an earlier post, I can remember pre 9/11, ORD’s flight sched (both UA and AA) cut around 20 or 30% of their flights due to delays. If I remember correctly, this was FAA recommended. This was when airlines such as Great Lakes had a commuter fleet of Beech 1900’s and Brasilias. You also had a large Eagle presense w/ Saabs and ATR’s. Keep in mind too, that you had 25% more mainline flights. but at the same time you had more flights to a particular destination many UA cities went from 6 to 4 RT’s . If the arguement is the smaller aircraft, which include the RJ’s, are clogging it up, with all of the flight reductions why is it as bad now as it was then when there were more flights with smaller aircraft to more destinations.
I don’t really see how GA or biz aviation has much of an effect.

Quote: Mirriam Webster Dictionary
1: the central part of a circular object (as a wheel or propeller)
2 a: a center of activity : focal point
b: an airport or city through which an airline routes most of its traffic
c: a central device that connects multiple computers on a single network
3: a steel punch from which a working die for a coin or medal is made

Southwest does not have 1 or 2 hubs from which their operation is centered. Neither does UA or AA or DL. By definition number 2B, UA has no hub because the majority of their flights are split between SFO DEN ORD and IAD. Likewise AA with ORD DFW and MIA, and then you can offset the numbers more by adding focus cities like JFK LAX BOS or STL RDU LGA (AA) blah blah. So really by that definition Frontier has a “HUB” in DEN, AS has a “HUB” in SEA and that’s about all that come to mind.

BUT

The argument of what is a hub the way it’s going here is a wash when you think about the topic of the thread. Regardless of if it’s considered a hub from a passenger standpoint, a MDW or an STL is a busy generator of traffic of turd green, and purple blue airframes. You’re talking 2nd busiest operator at STL and 1st at MDW (correct that if it’s wrong). So regardless of who’s conx-ing where, there is a hub’s worth of aircraft taking up the air/taxiway space.

To use STL and MDW again, if I am a passenger flying from BHM to SLC, I will use the STL hub to fly because I will connect there. That would be a hub and spoke system. I am flying on a spoke to the hub and on another spoke to the outstation. Point being if it’s a “focus city” “mini hub” “super hub” etc, it’s a hub and spoke operation in some way, and in the past few years with WN illiminating the 3 and 4 stops (I remember a STLMCIABQLAX) they are becoming more of a hub and spoke operation.

Now, let me throw out another word to discuss :wink: and fight about, and this is a good one…

commuter vs. regional!!! have at it :laughing:

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Dami= sometimes wrong, but never in doubt.

I did give you something from Southwest’s annual report where they said that they used **principally ** point to point routing. Their use of the word principally means that it is not entirely point to point, which means that it is partly another system, a hub type system. You choose to ignore that because it doesn’t fit with your reality.

Just for grins, I did call Southwest this morning and asked their reservations agent whether she would consider Southwest a completely point to point or a mix of hub and spoke and point to point and she said it was the later. I have no doubt that you will dismiss her observation as well. You have never before let the facts get in the way of your opinion and I don’t see any reason that you will start now.

29

I didn’t ask you to call Southwest. I asked you to write and get confirmation. Or, if you don’t want to write, post something about it on their blog.

The woman you spoke to did not know what she was talking about.

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What I should have said here was that she was speaking as an airline person to a civilian, one who doesn’t know about the finer points of airline scheduling.

31

SWA route network discussion goes here.

32

What I found most interesting about the article was not whether or not GA caused the delays, but the fact that the airport broadcast that message throughout the terminal for pax to hear! struck me as being a little shady to point the finger at GA to a bunch of irritated pax who would have no idea of what was actually going on. How would you like to be a GA getting your “$100 hamburger” sitting next to a table of delayed pax?

33

Go to ASE’s airport page and look at the IFR arrivals and departures. Theoretically, the delays are only caused on IFR Wx days. This is because when VFR conditions a business jet or turboprop can depart VFR and pick up the clearance in the air - thereby minimizing ALL delays. On an IFR day, only aircraft approved FIKI are opreating - once again - it charters and corporate.

The FAA needs to review the weather and in winter simply require slot reservations for IFR ALL the time. That will singlehandedly solve the problem.

The Airport is NOT going to blame the airlines, who pay huge fees to operate and who rent gate space and spend money on de-icing. The airlines are the cash cow - when there are delays who will get blamed? Not the airlines for over scheduling. Of course not.