After PPL

So I’m thinking about enrolling in a local community college’s flight training program that results in your PPL and also an Associates Degree in aviation or something similar (probably useless). Really, my goal is to get up to commercial with a twin-engine rating. I don’t think I want to go any higher than that. Basically just to where I can make my hobby make me money on the side.

Question I have is about CFI…If I get my PPL and later on become a CFI, I can charge for flight instruction, but does that have to be done within a school I am working for, or could I do it independently?

You’ll have to at least get your commercial to become a CFI.

As pfp217 said you have to have a commercial to get your CFI. As far as doing it independently goes if you, or your student, are renting an airplane from a local school they would most likely require you to be working for them. On the other hand you can certainly instruct in a student owned airplane.

As an extension to the question, what if I know somebody who is getting their CFI and I want them to train me? He said he’d only charge the price of fuel for the flight time.
Could you pass the ground exams at a school, then get your flight time with a CFI like that?

Unless I am missing the bleeding obvious, the answer would be no based on what I bolded above???

If they are not a CFI (you say they are getting which makes me think they are not a CFI), I wouldn’t think you cannot count that flight time as training hours.

Well I meant AFTER they get their CFI certificate, obviously… Once they are officially a CFI, can those hours count towards flight training time?

If you independently studied the ground school stuff, passed the ground exam, and got flight time from a friend/relative who owns a plane and is a CFI, could you get you PPL that way? Basically independently from any specific flight school.
You’d still have to do an FAA checkride, of course.
Oh and before you guys go off and say this is a terrible idea, rest assured I’m NOT going to, just curious if I could do some flight hours with a friend who will be getting his CFI who will only charge me for fuel.

Unless the rules have changed in the year or two…ahem…since I got my license you could study at one school and fly with someone else. One of the local High Schools was running nighttime adult ed. classes for the private when I learned to fly. That teacher worked for a different flight school than the one I used.

You could use your friend but the hours would only count after he gets his CFI, no back dating. Nothing says you can’t fly with him in the meantime and gain experience, you just can’t log the time.

Maybe some of the current CFIs here can put their .02cents in regarding using your friends airplane. Since there is money changing hands, even if he is technically losing money it may still be considered a rental. That means the airplane has to be legal to rent, 100 hour inspections and a local business license…etc. That brings the IRS and the local airport with it’s business rules into the mix too. You will find as you progress that FAR’s and IRS rules don’t always match up to well. Better you buy the fuel directly so there is absolutely no money paper trail between you and him.
The FAA examiner will want to go over the airplanes paperwork, if you use your friends make darn sure everything is ready.

John in Saudi

You could use your friend but the hours would only count after he gets his CFI, no back dating.

Just so no one else thinks I think I can get flight time without him being a CFI…**I am VERY aware that I cannot use any flight time I may accrue as official time unless he has his CFI! **
I’m just trying to find a way to reduce the cost of training if that is possible. If it was against any FAA regulations or anything, I certainly wouldn’t do it. Please don’t think that I’m trying to get away with something I shouldn’t be doing or trying to get around some rule or regulation. I promise you I’m not. You guys are the experienced pilots, which is why I’m asking you these questions…

So if I use his airplane (when he is a CFI), it HAS to be considered a rental? Can any one confirm that? I doubt he’d have a business license, although I’m pretty sure the plane would be properly inspected and such. Does the FAA checkride have to take place in the same plane you trained on or can it be any plane within the proper category?

It does not have to be a rental, only if money changes hands. That is as much the IRS as the FAA. You do not have to use the same airplane, but I would suggest if you are going to use a different one for the checkride you train for at least the last 2 or 3 flights in the one you are going to use.
I know you said you were not going around the CFI rule. I added that, like a lot of people do in the forum world, in case somebody else is reading the thread with the same line of questions.

Why the eyeroll?

You asked a question and people are taking time out of their day to try to answer and give friendly advice. A modicum of gratitude and respect would be nice. :confused:

Oh I know, and I thank all of you guys a LOT for answering all of my questions, not just in this thread, but others, too. I don’t think I’ve ever run into a more willing group of people when it comes to answering a newbie’s questions. :slight_smile: Once I actually have some experience, then I will start answering questions instead of asking them!

I just put the eye-roll in because that was twice that it seemed like somebody thought I was trying to get training from a non CFI. No disparagement intended!

Better phrased sentence :wink:

Should be a real good clue then the way you wrote your sentence has a problem if two people think the same thing. We only have what is printed in front of us.

I will say I did my training in my own plane which is not a rental. I used a flight school CFI in my plane and paid a little extra for his instruction time since I did not use one of their planes.

I also will reiterate what porterjet said, be absolutely sure that plane’s paperwork I’s have been dotted and T’s have been crossed. (airworthiness AND AD’s). This is something that is not done overnight on a properly maintained plane. The DE went through my logs with a microscope and it helped him to have things tabbed with those sticky post its to shorten his time in ensuring I met all requirements. It is the PIC’s responsibility to ensure AD’s have been complied before flight, not the owner of the airplane.

The checkride can be in any plane that you will be rated for, not necessarily the plane you trained in. It is to your benefit though to use one plane as just like a car, each plane despite it having the same name flies differently. That would be my opinion of course others vary based on their own experiences.

What kind of things would I specifically be looking for in the plane’s documentation?

Can’t speak specifics as it is model dependent for AD’s, but generally speaking, .411 .413 pitot static check annotated in the logs, current annual, AD compliance should be annotated in the logs, AROW shouldn’t be a gotchya, but need to CYA by physically checking in the plane for these items as you are PIC.

For AD’s for a particular plane … enFrameSet will be a good start for seeing what AD’s may apply to the plane. To get a flavor for what I look at, search for C23 and it will pull up all one time and recurring AD’s for the Sundowner. Each AD should be annotated somewhere in the logs whether it be a one time deal or recurring.

Bring NoDoze with you when reviewing the logs. :slight_smile:

While I heavily depend on my A&P to ensure that all AD’s have been complied with, I have by talking with other Sundowner owners found one on the stabilator never done so I got a copy of the AD and gave it to my A&P and he promptly did it and annotated my log book. He never knew about it, so it is a team effort between owner and A&P. He now does it every annual.

Unfortunately, there is no college course on this and a lot you learn “baptism by fire”, talking, listening and more listening and for me I hope I am doing the right thing the first time on my plane. :open_mouth:

In my experiences, to be honest, the DE on checkride won’t have the time to see if every little AD from 1100 BC to present has been complied with, but there are some that will jump out on particular models (wing spar on my bird that the DE did seek out in my logs) that may get a little more attention from the DE. You just need to be prepared to find it in the logs should he ask about a particular AD.

Hopefully I got everything, if not, somebody please CMA :smiley: :smiley:

I haven’t looked at the regs lately, I think there is something in there that the NEW CFI has to have given at least 100hr of duel or had their CFI for 2 years before they can instruct another perspective CFI