Firefighters try to douse the flames after a small aircraft crashed during rush hour in Mexico City Tuesday Nov. 4, 2008. Authorities have confirmed that Mexico’s top anti-drug prosecutor, Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos and Mexico’s Interior Secretary, equivalent to Interior Minister, Juan Camilo Mourino were onboard the plane.
photo from Airliners.net of XC-VMC Lear 45-028 operated by ‘Secretaria de Gobernacion’.
Makes you wonder if something sinister occurred?
TIME/CNN article states Mexican Police foiled an assassination attempt against one of the passengers earlier this year.
With approximately 400 Lear 45’s delivered in their ten years of operation, until now there have only been two losses of Lear 45’s.
The first was aircraft number N454LJ 45-004 lost during a ground accident during flight testing by Bombardier in October 1998.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the pilot to obtain/maintain alignment with the water pool, which resulted in the loss of control. Factors in the accident were the inadequate preflight planning of the flight test facility and the airplane manufacturer which resulted in hazards in the test area and the subsequent collision of the airplane with a vehicle. "
The second loss occurred in Italy June 2003, I-ERJC 45-093 was downed by multiple bird strikes.
As the aircraft took off from Milan, it reportedly struck a number of pigeons. The pilots declared an emergency and requested an immediate return to Linate. The Learjet lost control and crashed into a warehouse near a road on the outskirts of Milan, some 300 metres from the runway. In the vicinity a crowd was watching Italy’s national cycling tour Giro d’Italia.
Yesterdays accident, we have a Jet with a solid safety record, being flown in Mexico, a Government operated jet, carrying Mexico’s Drug Czar - who must be target number one for all the cartels. Hmmm . . .
NTSB SENDS TEAM TO MEXICO TO ASSIST WITH LEARJET AIRCRAFT
ACCIDENT INVESTIGATION
The National Transportation Safety Board sent a team of
investigators to Mexico City, Mexico, to assist in the
investigation of yesterday’s accident in which a Learjet L45
(XC-VMC), crashed into a mixed, residential/commercial
neighborhood. It has been reported that all 9 persons on
board, including Mexican Interior Secretary, Juan Camillo
Mourino, were fatally injured.
==========================================
From Aviation Safety Network Click Here.
Reports state the Learjet was following Mexicana flight 1692, a B767-300, the Learjet did not comply with the required separation between the two aircraft. (Wake Turbulence.)
Unofficially, the crew of XC-VMC was instructed by ATC to cross the radio-ease ‘Matthew’ at a speed of 180 knots, however the lear remained at a speed of 250 knots.
The Mexicana Boeing 767-300 in front of the Lear, was reported at 183 knots.
As the Lear was turning onto final, at a height of 726 metres, it was reported as ‘falling out of the sky’.
Flight Global update includes ATC (in Spanish) and google map.
Aviation Safety Network reported wake turbulence accidents in the past, include a Lear 25D, Westwind 1124, MS 760 Paris Jet, and a Citation 550.
I read that it was a lear 24, but with 8 pax, I doubt it…
Its a simple case of wake turbulance
Heh David, welcome to FlightAware.
All the Mexican Press are currently saying the same thing.
The CVR and FDR were both recovered and transported to Washington.
The Mexican authorities have stated they will be releasing a factual preliminary report to the press next Tuesday.
Of the 15,000 or so biz jets manufactured, only twice has wake turbulence been listed as the sole cause of a crash, a Citation 550, and a Westwind 1124.
There was a Lear 25D back in 1979, that wake turbulence was a ‘possible contributing cause’, along with icing, and delayed thrust.
So in fact if it is wake turbulence, it is very sad that a highly skilled flight crew, with a very high end jet, would make such a terrible error. Seems very odd to me, that the Lear would be cruising in at 250 knots, from radar, it was very busy, and the crew were very experienced at this airport.
LiveATC you can watch the radar track here.
“New twist”…
Hmmm, back to those “sinister thoughts”. Engines just don’t normally “fall off”.
Here is the strange thing, I can not find a single source, other than one line in a CNN article to confirm an engine was lost???
I read an official report that stated both engines were found, and showed that they were operating normally right up until the aircraft impacted the ground.
It continued, the engine remains, along with the FDR and the CVR, were placed on a Mexican Air Force Transport plane and flown to USAF facility in Tuscon Arizona for investigation by NTSB and Bombardier.
Also, http://www.fsmex.com/ is the Mexican aviation forum, I’ve read nothing about an engine separation or a secondary crash site of an engine???
On a funnier note, a Mexican newspaper released the photo of a Mexican Sabreliner that crashed last year, stating it was the Lear. The photo shows a sabreliner in a line of trees, in flames, with rolling hills of trees, in the bright daylight. The Mexican Lear crashed between buildings at night!!!
Did the official report show where both engines were found at the “crash scene”?? Would seem to me location of each engine would be critical to know if “one fell off”. Not sure how determinations were made for “running normally” but if the engine fell off running normally, would that be any different then crashing into the ground running normally?
What bothered me about the CNN article was that they still say “no foul play” even though the very same article said an “engine fell off”. How could that determination be made this early in the investigation kinda raised flags to me.
Normally I find CNN reasonably credible for aviation related incidents, but this one article does have some hinky stuff tossed around in it. Like I said earlier, engines just don’t normally fall off.
Mexican Forum they had so much internet traffic their servers crashed. Anyway there are 3 threads here on this accident.
Still don’t see any comments on the engine story?, however they say lots of ammo from weapons in the crash site. Also note the Lear was slow to slow down, and then reduced speed as follows;
‘They explain that the flight controller called speed reduction to 180 and the Lear Jet was slow to obey the order. After they see a slowing sharply, going from 260 knots to 180, in a few seconds, and further down to 160, 149 and up to 113 knots.’
By then it was just over a minute behind the B767, and banked in a turn for final, when it disappeared from radar.
One final comment, on the Mexican forum, everyone seems to have a very high regard for the NTSB, in fact they state over and over, a bigger trust in the NTSB than the Mexican Govt. investigating.
Talk about lost in translation,
"I watched the news conference live on Mexican TV (Milenio TV) and what the official said in Spanish was; “Primero se desprendio el motor izquierdo” (Frist, the left engine broke off).
CNN writer changed it from broke-off to fell-off, but not only that, they took it out of context. They must not have seen the whole conference where the official was talking about what happened AFTER THE IMPACT, so they
went from - (after impact) the left engine broke off- to engine fell off Mexican plane before crash.
quote from airliners.net
I agree CNN usually reports facts, but I think they are way off on this one!!!
YouTube Video released radar and ATC!!!
Dude- 7000ft 260kts ground speed he was above the 250Kts Va, My guess Wake Turbulence ABOVE Va and the engiene fell off. That plane has more then enough power to get out of trouble, but when you hit some nasty nasty at a fast speed you break the airplane. Last time I check my GOM, that wasn’t approved.
Hmmm, I’m not questioning what could happen, I’m saying CNN has reported incorrect facts regarding this crash. I can not find any source other than the one CNN statement to confirm any engine, or any part of the aircraft ‘fell off’, and by all accounts, the aircraft impacted the ground in one piece!
If there is anything at all to the contrary please post.
The more I read about this accident, the more it is looking like something to do with the excessive loss of speed. If they deployed their spoilers to reduce speed, what if they failed to retract spoilers and deployed flaps?
If there are any Lear 45 drivers out there, can you deploy spoilers, and then deploy flaps without stowing the spoiler??, and even if not allowed, if a pilot were to err, will the airplane allow it?
From the radar, it looks like they are within legal limits, and from that distance a B767 has never knocked another plane out of the sky.
There is also no further communication from the aircraft, which to me shows the crew was too busy.
I think the CVR and FDR will hold the answers. The Mexican authorities have said they will release their preliminary report by Tuesday.
I await the facts, but they will be very interesting.
If anyone associated with the persons on board this aircraft read these post, with respect, I am sorry for your loss. My interest in this accident is in regard to the aircraft itself, and as a pilot, to understand what happened and why, and to learn from it.
I’m saying CNN has reported incorrect facts regarding this crash.
You mean the Communist News Network made a mistake?
Say it ain’t so! They would never make a mistake, especially when it comes to aviation!
By the way, they are changing their name. It’s a tossup between the ONN (Obama News Network) and SONN (Socialist Obama news Network). 
There are some questions open.The pilot never mentioned a turbulance, he had the speed of 250 and had to slow down to 180. Could this have been a problem?
Why was there no sign of any indication that the plane had problems?
When the trafic controler said to the pilot he should reduce the speed, this is when comunication was interrupted.But the voice of the pilot was serene,before.There was another pilot on bord, who asked for a ride. So 3 pilots, they could have solved the problem.Many do not write about this 9th victim on bord.Many people on the ground said they saw a fireball coming down, not only one person. Others said they saw a light at the tail.
Why where 2 helicopters at the same place shortly before the accident.They must have seen something, nobody ever questioned them one was just 600Meter below the jet.Why was the PFP the police force 5 Minutes later at the scene, and one person heard the officer talk on a radio:The Pichon is not in the air and two is out. Two is the second in charge of the country I gess.How does this sound to you?
Who talks about the people on ground, I cannot imagine that there where only 5 people on ground who died.
Mexican Forum thread #4 ongoing XA-VMC thread in Spanish.
Mexican statement;
There is an absence of traces on trees and obstacles, there are no cuts or broken cables. The plane struck at an angle of at least 45 degrees; the tip of a left wing impacted a tree. The tip of the right wing is embedded in a car.
The plane arrived at the impact in terms of integrity, the plane fell below the cables, and the heat melted the plastic that surrounds them.
The primary estimation of the speed is 500 km / h.
The impact on the corner of one of the buildings indicates that the remains of the aircraft had a significant speed - about 250-300 km / h.
The plane was slowed by a concrete structure. The deceleration of the aircraft was a product of the cars with which it was crashing, and then crashing into a corner of a building, which showed the left engine.
The left wing was broken in the initial impact, its leaking fuel.
The turbines were found 40 meters away from each other.
The right engine was fragmented into two parts, which leads to the conclusion that there was a rotational speed until the fall.
All the pieces found are scheduled with a number, name of the piece, and details that allow determnar the position of the piece.
The staff is working 24 hours a day.
NTSB statement;
Associated Press
MEXICO CITY – U.S. investigators have found no evidence of foul play in a mysterious plane crash that killed Mexico’s second-most powerful official, the American ambassador said Wednesday.
U.S. National Transportation and Safety Board experts say that, so far, nothing in the flight data recorder, cockpit recorder or other evidence indicates that “sabotage or criminal activity caused the crash,” Tony Garza said in a statement.
“The preliminary evidence indicates the crash was a tragic accident,” he added.
The NTSB team has been in Mexico for a week to help investigate the Nov. 4 crash that killed Interior Minister Juan Camilo Mourino, who was the equivalent of Mexico’s vice president and the closest confidant of President Felipe Calderon.
Five people on the ground and nine people on the plane were killed when the Learjet 45 suddenly plunged into an upscale Mexico City neighborhood. Also among those on board was former anti-drug prosecutor Jose Luis Santiago Vasconcelos.
From the start, Mexican investigators have said the crash appeared to be an accident. They ruled out a bomb last week, saying no trace of explosives was found at the crash scene.
Despite the lack of evidence, many Mexicans immediately suspected the crash was another attack by drug cartels, which have increasingly targeted security officials. Vasconcelos had been the target of at least one previous assassination plot.
Garza said the NTSB investigators would leave Mexico on Thursday but the agency would continue to help examine evidence and run simulations to determine what happened.
He gave no indication of whether investigators were close to determining the cause, saying only that “we must now all await the final conclusions” of Mexican aviation officials.
Mexican officials have offered a wide range of possibilities, from human error to turbulence from another plane. They ruled out engine failure last week.
The crash occurred in clear weather, and in their last recorded radio conversation, the plane’s flight crew calmly discussed radio frequencies and speed with controllers. The tape went silent just as radar lost the plane’s altitude reading.
Mexican Preliminary Report it is in Spanish.
Recording clearly explains the aircraft ran into the turbulence of the B767 followed by Terrain Terrain warning, and impact.
Google translation:
Recording booth:
Copilot lower at 180 Charlie Mike
Pilot: Do you know what? Give me a dot, Alvarito huh?, please
Phone: Just a dot
Recording booth:
Copilot lower at 180 Charlie Mike
Pilot: Do you know what? Give me a dot, Alvarito huh?, please
Phone: Just a dot
Lopez says Meyer ( "the dot may be an indication of Altitude adjustment or a set point to the system of flaps that at the time was set at 20 degrees for landing at the IMTA)
Co-pilot: Yes, you have nothing further to 200 (in reference to reduce speed to 200 knots)
Pilot: We strike the nose
Phone: No, no , let it now
Pilot: Because we are close to leveling, right?
Co-pilot: Yes (at the moment is that the command pilot of the aircraft requested the opinion of the co-pilot to use the rudder to lift the nose of the aircraft and proceed well and reduce the speed that was to reach 180 knots to had been instructed by air traffic services. They remain 00:44:12)
The traffic controller instructed the Mexican to contact the control tower at the IMTA to receive landing instructions.
Answer; Having Mexican 692.
Recording booth:
Pilot: There is already stabilized
Phone: OK
Pilot: There is
Phone: down (referring to the flaps had fallen to the position of 20 degrees to which they had been ordered)
00:45:05 hours
The talk continues in the cabin:
Pilot: I will go to 160 by that I bring back (in clear reference to it had realized that the aircraft was heavy ahead)
Phone: It is beginning to turn
Pilot: So it is 5 miles from us
Pilot: I get eight eight, please
Phone: Eight eight hundred
00:45:57:
Traffic control service educates air transportation VMC to contact the control tower at the IMTA.
Pilot: Good Morning, thanks
Mexicana was the 1692 nine thousand 300 feet in altitude and at a speed of 168 knots. The VMC was nine thousand and 700 feet with a speed of 209 knots.
Recording booth:
Pilot: Oral turbulence of the latter
Phone: Oh GUEY
Pilot: Oh bastard
On the enviroment: What happened rea
00:43:13
Recording booth:
The pilot makes clear reference to the turbulence left by the ship that will precede it.
00:46:18 hours
Phone: Oh bastard
Pilot: Ay, ay
Pilot: Alvaro, what we do, Alvaro
Phone: Leave it, Leave it, Leave
Pilot: Alvaaro Tuya
Phone: Oh bastard
Pilot: Ay, ay
Pilot: Son of your #$@%! mother
Pilot: No Alvaro
00:46:23
Enviroment: similar to the sound of the alarm speaker altitude, while the alarm system alerted to local terrain.
TERRAIN TERRAIN
Copilot: Doisite
END
