todays quiz


#1

refer to:
flightaware.com/resources/airpor … LOC+RWY+11

Okay, you decide it is a good day to go out and get some real IFR weather practice in your new Cessna Super Sundowner. It is fully IFR equipped and certified. You are still legally current but feel that a brush up is in order since winter is coming. The weather is not bad, VFR in the traffic pattern, but with some clouds at 2000’.
You get a local IFR clearance for multiple approaches and depart runway 29 planning on doing the ILS 11 first. Approach control takes you well west of CREPE for spacing on several departures then vectors you back inbound at 4000’. Passing CREPE you are cleared for the approach and told to contact the tower. You call them and report on the localizer inside CREPE. They ask you to fly the published missed approach starting at DOBRA due to other IFR traffic waiting to depart.
Upon reaching DOBRA do you;
1.Start a climb and since you are already above 1200’ turn right to 175.
2. Start a climb to 3000’, continue inbound on the localizer while tuning your #2 radio to identify HASBY. You figure that will be the closest you can get to identifying the approach end of the runway.
3. Start a climb, call missed approach and hope they give you a clue on what to do.


#2

3 would be most correct.

1 is clearly wrong since terrain clearance is not guaranteed.

2 could work if you had GPS. Start your turn at the approach end. Do able but not really correct.

Frank Holbert
160knots.com


#3

Agreed. call the missed, start the climb to 3000, and head to MQO. The problem here is that #2 couldn’t be done as you were asked to fly the missed at DOBRA, not continue on the approach afterwards.

The missing piece of info here is the condition of the clouds. Are we looking at them being scattered, few, or a ceiling? If a few, then #1 MIGHT work, but I wouldn’t risk an ASRS report on it (or worse). If worse cloud cover than that, you wouldn’t be able to maintain your own terrain separation in the 175 heading to join the MQO R-126.

BL.


#4

Anybody else?

I gave some real world choices instead of quoting from the big book of instrument procedures. The absolutely technically correct answer is not one of the choices.
Unless you are flying with a “maintain VFR” or equivalent clearance the actual weather should not influence your answer. The reported weather was 2000 OVC/10 miles but several pilots on the GPS 29 approach reported breaking out at 1400’ about 4 miles east of the airport.

Here you go:
If a missed approach is initiated before arriving at the missed approach point (MAPt), it is important that the pilot proceeds to the MAPt (or to the middle marker fix or specified DME distance for precision approach procedures) and then follows the missed approach procedure in order to remain within the protected airspace. The MAPt may be overflown at an altitude/height greater than that required by the procedure; but in the case of a missed approach with a turn, the turn must not take place before the MAPt, unless otherwise specified in the procedure.

So, if you were a hotshot pilot you would have been planning on timing the approach just in case the glide slope failed. In this case you would use that timing to identify the MAPt for the LOC approach and use that to set up the turn to 175.
In the real world with everything working up to the time you called the tower you are probably not timing. So identifying HASBY gives you a start on the MAPt, overfly HASBY by a minute or so and you would be pretty close to the airport and safe to turn south.
Turning to 175 at DOBRA does not guarantee terrain clearance, even at 3000 ft. ( although you would be OK in this case) and you may end up west of MQO which would sure confuse things if you were set up for the 126R, especially if you don’t have an RMI or GPS to aid in visualizing the situation.

In this case it was pretty obvious watching here on FA that the tower and approach control had co-ordinated things since the airplane I was watching almost immediately turned toward the southwest and the departure was cleared out shortly after that. It is also possible that approach control had issued alternate missed approach instructions but I can’t verify that since they are not available on liveatc.

Anyway, I thought it was an interesting problem since I had never heard them issue a missed approach (twice actually) at DOBRA before.


#5

I would climb to 3000, watch my timer until the missed approach point, the fly the published missed. So, what do I win?

BTW, this is the reply I was going to post at 1 am last night, but decided to go to bed instead. Always a bridesmaid…


#6

I’d tell the controller That I’m a lifeguard flight and that the dude in the ground can wait for me to land.
Then do 300kts to the final approach fix and land. 8)


#7

Sorry if I’m late getting back to everybody, I had an excellent overnight in Riyadh last night. zzzzz

Ah well, you didn’t read the rules of the ONE Million Zimbabwean Dollar Contest. Let me post an abbreviated version of the rules here for the first time, a sort of world premier, if you will.

Winning entries must be posted no later than 5 seconds after the original question. Ineligible are Flight Aware employees, their spouses, friends, second cousins once removed, advertisers and their extended families, users of Flight Aware including but not limited to anybody who has ever heard of Flight Aware.
< a further 26 pages redacted>


#8

If the dude is IN the ground already, not much purpose for your flight - is there??? He’ll wait for you indefinately :smiley:


#9

[quote=“NeedleNose”]

Damn


#10

DOBRA is 2186. If I was asked to go missed at DOBRA, I would REQUEST climb to 4000 then direct to MQO (published hold there) since MSA is 3700 for the lower right quadrant of the approach plate.

What’s got me bumfuddled (doesn’t take much!) is the MSA is higher then the published hold altitude of 3000 at MQO.


#11

Question on this approach though. If I hold at MQO, I would think it’s expected that I climb to 4000 in the hold before initiating a new approach. I see the annotation 4000 on the 307 radial?

Which begs the question, why hold at 3000 per graphic instructions for missed when you have to climb to 4000 anyway?


#12

Might have an answer.

There is an MVA of 3000 around MQO, which would require the hold to be at 3000. However, leaving the hold, you’re in the lateral bounds of V27, which has the MEA of 4000, so you’d have to depart at that altitude. Otherwise you wouldn’t be at a safe altitude to execute the approach. If given a vector and a descent by ATC, you’d be in the clear (per the 3000 MVA). But without ATC, you’d need to be that high for the airway, let alone the annotation for the procedure turn.

BL.


#13

tyketto is right, I see a lot of 3000 vectors south of the localizer. I don’t have the MVA chart here but I think it is 4000 north of the localizer due to a higher ridge and a TV antennae. If you want to up the befuddled factor even more the missed approach off the VOR is the same except you climb to 3100.


#14

The VOR-A MAP makes more sense. the 3100 climb is definitely for the MVA in the area. However, if you look at the hold for the TACAN approach, you’ll see that you join the MQO R-292 to FRAMS. that establishes you directly on V27, which the MEA there is 4000.

Although this does bring up an interesting conundrum. Because of lack of separation, you couldn’t have simultaneous approaches in use. Think of the deal ATC would have if 2 aircrafts (one on the ILS or LOC, one on the VOR or TACAN) go missed at the same time. both join the MQO R-126 back to MQO and holding over MQO, but at 100ft apart.

Nasty stuff.

BL.


#15

Yeah, I don’t think free flight will work very well in that case.


#16

MVA chart? I under the impresssion MVA is not a published value?

Begs yet another question. If assigned 3000 for holding which is below MSA, why isn’t the chart annotated radar services required (I forget what the actual words are)?

I’m really surprised the graphical instructions don’t say 4000 as I assume (you know how that goes) the chart is designed for NORDO or self navigation.

Good excercise!


#17

MVA charts are the 10-1R series but not always published when a Center radar is the primary radar facility. That’s my understanding anyway, and no I don’t think you would know 3000 is the MVA if you weren’t from the area. Besides you don’t want those pesky pilots knowing everything. Maybe Frank can comment on this.

MSA is an advisory altitude published in case you lose radio contact or have some other emergency and can’t talk to ATC right away.

I would ass u me that 3000 works outside of radar coverage as a missed approach holding altitude because you may have overflying traffic crossing MQO going to/from Santa Maria at 4000 for example. MQO is an IAF for the ILS 12 at SMX. Holding missed approach traffic at 3000 lets SMX traffic continue without interference. For both flights a day! lol
Any clearance out of the holding pattern and without radar would require a climb to 4000 or 5000 Northbound along V113…


#18

Now that I think about it 10-1R charts may only be published outside the US.
All radar facilities will have an MVA chart available to the controllers though.