Messing around with Antenna Ideas

[quote=“jepolch”]

Thanks. I haven’t done a good job testing each antenna, pie plate etc. I need to be patient for results. I think I’ll liquid tape my 8 legger and put it back on the pie tin.

I did run a length of about 35 ft of RG 8X to the yard and put up a stick with that 8 legger. Ran it to another laptop with another RTL dongle. Was getting about 20% less message rate than my 4 legger/pie tin with 20 feet of RG-58U.

In the spring I may simply put the whole thing in the loft of the garage with 3 or 4 feet of RG 8X and a USB extender. Can be on the peak at 26ft high. Dedicated laptop (XP, 4GB, AMD). I can remote into it from inside. Have wired LAN there so it’s no issue.

Scott

Ditch the 8X – you’ll be better off with a quality RG-6.

RG-8X attenuation at 1 GHz is 13.5 dB attenuation per 100 feet. A good RG-6 at 1 GHz is 6.1 dB per 100 feet. Oh, RG-58 is 21.5 dB attenuation per 100 feet at 1 GHz… The input impedance of a typical R820T dongle is 75 Ohms – matching the RG-6. (For what we’re doing, receive only, the impedance mismatch in using a 50 Ohm cable doesn’t amount to much – loss is more important.) Besides, RG-6 is cheap; to get better performance in a 50 Ohm cable you need at least something like LMR-400 or 9913 (I use both for ham radio work). These cables are larger in diameter, require special (expensive) connectors, and are in general a pain to work with (but if you’re transmitting at high frequencies, they’re the way to go).

(see for example http://www.w4rp.com/ref/coax.html on attenuation for common coaxial cables)

Cheers–

bob k6rtm

I had a few hundred feet of it from a 2M/440 antenna setup. Seems to work fine for that. Scanner antenna too.

I also have a ton of RG-6 from a friendly cable guy. I can swap it out quick for a test. It’s even white to match the snow…

Thanks for the details.

Left hand side is RG-8X, 35 ft, 8 leg, pie pan. SO-239 - SO-239. Right side is RG-58U, 20 ft, 4 leg pie pan. Pre-made SMA-SMA cable.

Wow! That’s some 8X! For the distances involved, I’d expect the attenuation to be about the same (estimated 4.7 dB for the 8X, estimated 4.3 dB for the 58), and the signal levels to be about the same. Either you’ve got magical RG-58, the multiple legs are causing problems, you’ve got funky 239 terminations, or more likely, that 8X should be used for something else – like a clothesline? Any chance of running the 4 leg antenna on the 8X to do further isolation? I’m really curious as to what’s killing the signal…

I’m still getting started with this stuff – I hadn’t seen SBSplotter before. Now up and running doing pictures to show me where the hills are.

cheers–

bob k6rtm

[quote=“k6rtm”]

Yea, I got that 8X from some Ham show years ago. Think we got 500 ft roll and split it up.Works good (as far as I can tell) for the 2M and scanner. Not much 440 work. It was the thing to have seemingly (25 years ago?). This weekend I’ll clear it out and setup the RG-6. I’ll throw that RG-8X up in the garage for another scanner I have there. In the spring I’ll put that laptop out there, 5 foot run of RG 6 to the roof and run a usb extender. I don’t think I have any major interference concerns (cell, etc.).

I’ll swap the 4 for the 8 tomorrow at 7 pm my time and run a day and we’ll see.

Hi guys, let me share my idea with you. What I am going to advise you is coaxial collinear antenna, which is very simple to make. You can simply follow the steps from nodomainname.co.uk/Omnicolin … linear.htm
Both have very good performance and high gain. I use both and more serious performs little bit better. See below the diagram of the coverage I regularly get, more than 200 NM in all directions !

SBS plotter
http://s28.postimg.org/50r5lc5l9/SBS2.jpg

PlanePlotter
http://s13.postimg.org/bjenxj1cn/PP2.jpg

Assembled antenna
http://s13.postimg.org/5rejqdriv/col_new.jpg

I hope I will inspire you to try with CoCo antenna.

Igor

When I get the time (sigh) I want to try a co-linear for ADS-B, among other things.

Here’s what my experience with VHF/UHF antennas has taught me:

Ground planes: simple and effective. 5/8 wavelength can produce some gain. Big hole directly overhead. not very frequency selective

Co-linears: need to know velocity factor of line used. simple and can provide some gain. Hole overhead increases with gain. somewhat frequency selective

Turnstiles and eggbeaters: little gain, circular polarization, no hole overhead – great for sat work. frequency selective

Corner reflector dipoles: simple, effective, lots of gain in an identified sector. cheap. somewhat frequency selective

Yagis: effective, gain increases with number of elements, and so do sidelobes! very frequency selective!!

Discones: very wideband. takeoff angle increases somewhat with frequency. size of hole overhead decreases with frequency. hub is tricky, the rest simple.

That hole on the top – the radiation pattern of vertical antennas such as ground planes, co-linears, etc, all have a significant signal drop off directly above the antenna. As antenna “gain” increases, the antenna pattern goes more and more horizontal, decreasing pickup at higher angles. You end up with antenna which can hear really well at certain angles but is stone deaf overhead.

Remember that we are working with a system. Changing one part of the system can alter the performance of the rest of the system – that’s what we’re trying to do by changing antennas. Those changes can be positive, neutral, or negative. We need a way to measure the change in system performance, which also needs we need to measure baseline performance. PiAware gives us measurements: birds spotted and positions reported. We can use these measurements to track performance changes. We learn not just from changes that improve performance, but also from those which decrease performance, or don’t seem to help or hurt.

I’ve got a commercial discone on one end of the roof (and a 2-meter eggbeater on the other end). It works a treat for ADS-B, but needs filtering so as not to overload the poor little SDR. Mesured coverage and performance is pretty good, terrain limited on the West side, but plenty of (good) position reports in the 200nm range.

This suggests to me that antenna gain isn’t my big problem. From the sat work I’ve done, I’m interested in what I may be missing directly overhead. That strongly suggests an eggbeater or a turnstile as the next experimental antenna – no gain, but no hole overhead, either. Also somewhat frequency selective, so filtering requirements may be less.

Next on my list to explore is improving coverage of flight paths coming in from the East. Geometry/topology suggests I should have better results in that direction; I suspect the answer is traffic collisions. This suggests going sectorized with a corner reflector pointed East. Doing that will help overcome the collision problem. In other communications systems, a sectorized model allows support of more stations on the same frequency.

I’ll try a co-linear – but – while gain increases with the number of elements, the net increase goes down with that number, and the antenna pattern narrows further, increasing that hole on the top. The center frequency and net increase in gain is also dependent on carefully matching the length of each section. My scientific wild a** guess is 4 to 5 sections max, terminated to provide a DC path to ground.

I read with interest some of the antenna threads on this forum where someone goes from a multi-element co-linear to a ground plane and reports an increase in performance. How is that possible? Hypotheses include: (1) too much gain from the co-linear overloading the SDR, (2) poorly constructed co-linear making a total hash of things, (3) carefully constructed co-linear antenna pattern cutting out a significant amount of traffic outside that narrow pattern, or (4) Murphy’s favouriite, something else entirely.

But the fun of working with antennas at this frequency is that they’re small and relatively easy to make (except for the precision required at GHz frequencies). You need to run them for a while to collect comparison data, but that’s part of the scientific method.

Keep having fun–

bob k6rtm

Hi Bob, thank you for your input on various antennas. So far I had a chance to test following models: single 5/8, J-Pole, CoCo and to be honest only the last one gave me satisfactory results. I had some concerns about cone of silence, however it didn’t seem to be a problem as I tested it by observing messages (time / coordinates) being actively received from flaying above planes. Even if signal weakened down, it would still be passed inertially. My co-linear antenna consists of 9 x 1/2 wave dipole elements + The 1/4 wave whip at the top and decoupling with COAX male adaptor which connects directly with RTL dongle. I use 20 meter active USB extension as the COAX cable signal loss is relatively big on 1 Ghz. In my opinion COAX cable should be reduced to absolute minimum and active USB extension lead used instead.

Take care
Igor SQ9APP

I’ve noticed a positive correlation between noise (i.e. “power from all samples not part of a decoded message”) & decoded message rate (which is going to approximate number of transmitters) - see below. I’ve also noticed specific cases - mostly thanks to a bug the first time! - where dump1090 managed to decode independent signals that are actually overlapping - mostly where the preamble of the second message overlapped the end of the first’s data. So you’re probably right about collisions; would be interested in your results.

I made 2 of these and both were not good. I may try again but not sure it’s worth it. I was very very careful with the construction of both. I ended up using the last one as a mast to hold my 4 leg GP. Is it worth buying one from ebay for $50-100? Maybe.

Until spring shows its face around here, i may lay low (5.5F this am).

I know I know, there’s colder out there…everyone’s in the icebox. I grew up in Saranac Lake NY USA. Google that and low temp. At my age the mountain has left the man years ago. I’ll take 76F and sun 365 days a year.

Well, somehow it worked out for me. In fact I made 2 co-linear antennas and both have great coverage. From my observations, the best result can be achieved when dongle is directly plugged into antenna and active USB extension connects with computer. My USB cable is 20 meter long. I also tried with J-Pole and 5/8 but they were out of competition.

Yes, you had the optimal setup. I still have the last one hanging around. I just need a USB cable. You know, I may re-fool with this.

eBay here I come.

EDIT: I checked eBay. I wonder how critical this is:

Operating temperature range from 0°C to +80°C (+32°F to +176°F)

It hasn’t been above 32F for a few weeks now.

Do you mean USB cable or dongle outside? both already managed with -10 °C, no worries :slight_smile:

Well both really. This was for the USB extender actually. It’ll be what it is - I figured it would work ok.

I have a WRT54G wireless access point hat’s been in the garage loft for 2 years. Survived two winters and several -25F nights.

Scott

[quote=“k6rtm”]

Where did you get the “received off air message rate” counter?

Thanks
K1BAA

[quote=“aguilaba”]

It’s from Plane Plotter…