FlightAware Discussions

BREAKING NEWS - Dash 8 Crash in Buffalo


Probably one other reason ATC asked Delta if they were having any indication problems with the instruments was, the accident was in the area of KLUMP, the LOM. This is part of the approach, right?


didn’t say any windshear

but if mod - sever turb was forecast [to be verified]

just could have been a good bump on the way in, which knocked down the ias for a moment, activated the stick pusher and started all the fun – cept if crew reacted re. windshear r/t stall

assuming these guys could fly – we have to ask –

why did the ias read so low? [did they let it go there? – -nah!!!]

why did they pull back to override the stick pusher? [did they forget stalls 101? naah!]


only a windshear reaction explains why the capt pulled up and overrode the auto stick pusher downer

he did exactly as they train u in windshear training – cept for the AND THEN GO AROUND part – no matter – it was too late then anyway

as far as your shorts …


Well…I’m not a DHC-8 piloto. But, from my experience in corporate turbo-props and jets I’ll offer this… With a clean config Va at the estimated landing wt. of 143 kts, I’d add 10 just because, and another 10-20 for the icing conditions. But see…I’m used to flying my current TJ ride at 170 kts. to a 5 mile final, at my home airport, to comply with the app controller’s request as he/she attempts to maintain spacing.


it wasn’t “indication problems” they asked about

it was the LOCALIZER

it wasn’t the LOM [at Klump]

it was the LOC [at the far end of 23 on the airport, 5 miles from the crash site]


You start timing at KLUMP for the ILS, if it is out you cannot start your time. KLUMP is also the FAF. Just a thought to add to the mess.


Those VA’s sound kind of low for the 400, VA for a Dash 8 200 is 166 where VFe for 15 was 148. I’ve tossed my Dash 8 300 stuff.


AZ = can you find the VMCG and VMCA for the 400?


thank you

you’re awesome – just explained something else

that’s why on the tape they took delta 1998 thru the loc before they knew there was a crash

atc even says it’s for spacing –

must have been cuz colgan was way too slow

chheeeesh! everyone’s way too nice these days [course being buffalo, i understand – cold weather, warm people, as we say!]

you should have heard those BOS controllers yelling at me to keep the speed up way above v-lo or v-fe – and once i started down on the ils – gs, that a/c did not want to slow down, going downhill [duh] – till i pulled the power all back, meaning the lg horn blared all the way in – not to mention it’s not that great to go to idle on turbocharged pistons

course if u didn’t comply – they just sent you out again to get in line for the ils – and they were fine with doing that all day, till you learned…

i must have loved my crm training so much cuz they were training everyone to be as pushy as i am [only when necessary – and as courteous as possible, of course]

and proud of it!

such fun that was!!!


I’ll see what I can find out.


actually, i exaggerate re. BOS

in reality, after scaring the crap out of the pax [and me] ONCE – with the horn blaring – i thought it thru

and the next time

i figured out that if u keep the speed up to the om

then as the g/s wiggles u pull the throttles back and keep the nose up, the a/s drops quickly – then once you’re below flap 10 speed – drop them – then v-le is next – [now, if only i can duck down at 1000 fpm or so till i catch that slope…]

once the gear is down, you’re way below what atc wants on final, but since you’re inside the om, tough on them – they’re stuck with you

and the pax can then thank you for the nice flight, rather than rushing away to change their shorts

don’t u agree captain mel?

[and i don’t know about u, but eal only allowed us that one tiny pilot’s suitcase – even for a 4-5 day trip – so i never wanted to have more than one pair shorts/day packed in it.]


DT you’ve got private message.


Was there a question in there for me? sorry if I missed it!


Has anyone mentioned aircraft upset or main wing stall on here yet? (not to be confused with tail stall)


it’s really where i started…

see my writeup done yesterday

but in brief …

as was demo-ed to me somewhere’s in my first 10 hours…

you’re turning to final…you steepen the bank to make the turn and/or kick in a little extra rudder to help it around…

course with a steeper bank, u begin to lose altitude…

so u haul back a bit on the stick…

it’s called an accelerated stall!

usually if you’re banked left, the left wing is low [duh] [say around 45 degrees?]

then at the stall, the right drops much more violently [say to around 90 or 100 – esp. if u throw in power and yank that nose back up…]

does this sound familiar?

the ntsb wrote over hundred pages on the cory lindell crash in nyc – and this is what they concluded…

and i did hear at one point that the same team that wrote that is doing the work on this one [but i have no confirmation of that yet]

again – to my simple mind – not sure it matters that much

may not know what kind


there was a stall

there was a spin [flat]

there is no recovery from those at 1000 agl

i’ll go get my bud’s email to me 'bout that – he’s the 747 driver who’s instructed all over the world – one of the few pilots i’ll agree knows way more than i ;-] ]

and you do too, i’m sure, cap mel

oh rite – forgot – can’t cut and paste onto here, so if u want to read it you can go see it at www.airline-crash-analysis.com


would you believe me if I said the aircraft gave a stall warning (stick shaker or pusher) before it was in any turn? and the pilot over reacted to that which then started the chain of events that put them in the ground? Just a thought as well. I think I’ve mentioned upset but it was just in regards to the whole mess.


yes i would!

go read my bud’s comment re. stall recovery and training in transports – i think you’ll enjoy it…

u have to go to airline-crash-analysis – then to the bottom of my piece – then click on comments - anonymous

you can comment too if u want or just read…

sleep well, captain mel – i’m turning in now.



I’ve actually done stalls in transports as well, the dash is a transport right? I get to do stall recovery and unusual attitude recover every 6 months in the jet I currently fly (its the most fun a person can have at times, try it while IMC…). All I can say is this sure made a mess of an aircrafts pretty clean record.


I have lurked here off and on - I fly for business, and I smile each time I hear my Mom tell me that I “travel all of the time” because I know that it’s nothing compared to guys that are in the air everyday. My hobbies have tended toward race cars, but I am always fascinated by aviation.

Anyway, I wanted to thank you guys for this discussion. I lost an ex-colleague on the plane, and another ex-colleague was the gentleman on the ground. Yes, those two that perished worked together in the same plant for a number of years. I was only there with them for two years, but knew both well enough.

As a scientist, even though I don’t understand all of the lingo and the aero details, this helps me to understand and cope in my own way.

Thank you very much,



Didn’t see anyone discussing this. NTSB thinks pilot stalled the plane and pulled up.

Seems if they were having problems with the ILS they would have been discussing it on the CVR prior to everything going to hell.


wazzu = that was what I was saying as well. I think I read that same report you did.