Airports to be effected by VLJ


#1

Do you guys think that in the future airports like TEB or VAN NUYS (traditional corporate jet airports) will get most of the new VLJ traffic (FAA expects more then 1,200 jets by the year 2010) or do you guys think that because of VLJ airports with runways smaller then 5,000 ft will become more popular, being that there is usually less of a wait going in and out of one of these smaller airports. Do you think that your local field will be effected?

post your thoughts :slight_smile:


#2

The VLJs will fly to the most desireable arpt. Hanger fees, etc with dictate that. If the arpt is closer to the owners home or where he/she needs to go, will become more popular. You’ll just see more VLJ traffic… …But this will be in a couple years before VLJs are a common site. But when they do they’ll be like flys. :unamused: Yuck.


#3

priced at 1.3-1.5mil I think this might spell the doom for multi-engine prop planes ie. Baron, but the plane that I think will become the most effected by the rise of VLJs will be the King Air C90 class


#4

I doubt it. The Baron had been produced for many years. They will go on flying for many more years.

You need to consider more than just the cost of the aircraft. There are insurance concerns, for example, that will prevent every Kign Air C90 owner from upgrading.

The words is “affected,” not “effected.”


#5

A King Air, with up to 8 pax, 2000 lbs. payload, proven reliabitly and a comparable price, range and speed, seems a VLJ would have a hard time to compete. And even if is does compete, it will be years till King Air’s fade out of service and owner’s switch to VLJ.


#6

At TEB we expect to see quite a few just due to normal traffic, but the whole purpose of the VLJ is to be able to fly in and out of smaller airports closer to the destination, while avoiding more congested airports…

It’s basically the reason why corporate jets use TEB instead of EWR… much easier.

I imagine the VLJ’s will go to even smaller airports and avoid TEB as well


#7

When the potential VLJ buyer looks at insurance premiums, training requirements and time in type specifications required to obtain insurance, many will do a doubletake and look back at the hi-perf turbo-props.


#8

yea, thats right

hey corey what do you do at TEB


#9

Airport Ops… Looks like you’re CDW ops?


#10

…airports to be affected

affect-verb (How will this affect the outcome?)

effect-noun (What are the effects of smoking?)

:wink:


#11

There are no airports closer to NYC than Teterboro (other than LGA, and assuming NYC is the destination). Destinations west will go to MMU (ok, ok, or CDW :wink: ); south will go to Linden or Old Bridge or Central Jersey or Princeton; North will most likely go to HPN. Republic is too far east of the city, and traffic’s a bitch. I dont think the traffic will detrimentally “affect” Teterboro at all, if anything it will increase, if that’s even possible, causing even worse delays in bad weather.


#12

ok ok everyone

affect i get it :laughing:


#13

Well, keep in mind that in a relatively short amount of time, a much higher percentage of the airports in north america will suddenly be used much more often. While this was the goal of the VLJ, and is the easist solution to delays… well, it may not be that easy.

I will try to get everyone to think about this:

Pick a local airport that is rather busy, has a tower, approach control, and all that. Thats pretty much were all the local businesses fly out of, and there are some airline flights as well.

Now think of a nearby city, maybe 15-30 miles away that almost all users of that airport drive to. Does it have a little airport? Maybe an ILS approach if its lucky, maybe some GPS appraoches. Its mainly used for VFR student training. Its a pleasant place, just some touch and goes and pancake breakfasts.

Ok, someone who normally flies into your big airport and takes a limo to the other city with the small VFR airport realizes, hell, I’ll just get me on them VLJs and fly right on in there. A few others decide the same (maybe they get the great idea from the first person).

So, now, suddenly, this random airport no one has ever heard of, has 15 IFR ops a day from some very “important” people. Hmmmm.

That airport wasn’t designed for IFR traffic, or jets for that matter. The main airport 30 miles away has spend millions of dollars to make travel in and out of that airport as pleasant and safe as possible.

So, lets say its a sunday afternoon, and there are a few VFRs up and about in the pattern. Its 1800 overcast. There is a baron practicing appraoches (the only IFR aircraft in the area) and then all of a sudden, here come 3 VLJs flying in for the monday morning meeting.

Well, guess what, they’re not all getting in at the same time. its one in, one out, and that baron just began his approach. Alrighty, the approach controller at the main airport is scrambling to figure out where its best to hold THREE airplanes for an approach he’s cleared someone into once in the last week. Out come the charts, find the published hold. Its at the edge of the airspace out there, so, there are two other sectors to call to pointout the holding pattern there. And then, you wait. For the baron to come back out. Finally he calls and you vector him out of the way so you can get the first guy started in. He won’t cancel until he’s down below 1500 feet, and the only way to contact the approach controller down there is from the ground via FSS. This might take a while. Meanwhile, the baron gets the clue and goes somewhere else.

Sorry for the reality check. But, i hope this makes a point. A whole bunch of airports that aren’t designed to have lots of IFR traffic, will suddenly have it. One in and one out generally doesn’t delay anyone signifantly, becuase those airports just don’t have the IFR traffic to make it come into play. But once it does, what will the solution be? More towers? More approach controllers? Less rules?

DM


#14

No, it doesn’t clarify anything and you make it appear as though all of these new VLJs will be driven by clueless newbies!

Why are you limiting airport selections to: “Pick a local airport that is rather busy, has a tower, approach control, and all that. Thats pretty much where all the local businesses fly out of, and there are some airline flights as well.” (Emphasis added.) The VLJs are primarily designed and built to be able to use your run of the mill GA airport. No tower, no approach control, bupkus. And most businesses in my area use our two uncontrolled local airports for their CJs, etc.

IFR?? Why wouldn’t they have cancelled their IFR plan before approaching an uncontrolled airport?

You’re equating “Jet = Jet” in your scenario when you should be equating “VLJ = Small Multi or HiPerf Single”.

$.02.


#15

They wouldn’t cancel their IFR becuase its marginal IFR in my example.

The point of my post was that the introduction to the VLJ may significantly increase IFR traffic at airports not designed or originally intended.

As for your other comment about how I may or may not feel about pilots, allow me to simply state that there are many, MANY pilots that completely forgot what a preferred route is once they bought their shiny new GPS. Why can’t they fly ALB…ORF at 8000? Hmmmm. Well, the same mentality will most likely exist with the VLJ.

The problem that will be faced is the point that I can’t even really pinpoint what the new problem/issue will be with these jets. There are a couple thousand of them already committed to being made and purchased, and the FAA is pretty much gonna throw its hands up in the air when they all try to fly up high with the airliners. The best analogy I can come up with is it’ll be like riding your bicycle in the left lane of the interstate. Good luck telling these pilots who just spent 1.5 mil on a plane that is supposed to take them anywhere at FL340 that they can’t go above FL220 if they want to fly on J80.

Again, my apologies if I’m bursting someones bubble on the future glory of VLJs. I am not saying they won’t be a sucess on the business end, or that they won’t revolutionize aviation. I’m just saying, its not going to be all peachy. The system is not designed for all these planes with their flight characteristics.

DM


#16

There will definitely be changes made on “all” sides of the aisle (a/c manufacturers, FAA, pilots themselves, businesses that will use VLJs) if these things meet or exceed their selling potential. Hopefully, it’s not too difficult for all to agree on necessary rules changes and the like, as I would be hard-pressed to think that the FAA would just “throw their hands up” or do anything that would compromise safety in the skies. I’m sure they’re (FAA) not thrilled with the idea of increased traffic, but they are planning the easiest and safest course of action as we speak. It’s just another challenge of aviation. That’s what happens when you work in a field of technology. The FAA is hardly like any other government agency when it comes to actually making progress.


#17

As a professional pilot flying part 91 and part 135, I am really looking forward to the advent of the VLJ. There are some really good designs out there and I think, because of the manufacturers not supporting the 30 and 40 year old airframes, you are gradually going to see the number of Barons, 402, 421, Chieftains, and the such fading away like the Beech 18’s and the Stagger-Wings.

What scares me is with the price being in the 1 mill to 2.5 mil range, is the number of “weekend” Baron pilots who already own their aircraft outright, trading their aircraft in on one of the VLJ’s. It’s my understanding (insurance not being taken into account, remember it’s not required unless the bank says so) that a type rating is not going to be required and technically a short manufacturer check out would be all they have to do. Hopefully, most of these pilots will attend a Flight Safety Program or such but I know some pilots, and I’m sure some of you do to, that will think they don’t need something like that. I hope these “lawn darts” won’t put a damper on the advent of this new and much needed technology. Remember what happened with the Bonanza’s when they first came on the market back in the 70’s? It had a bad name for a long time before sales really started to rise.


#18

All good points, but just for the record the prototype model 35 V-Tail Bonanza made its first flight on December 22, 1945, with the first production aircraft debuting as 1947 models.

Unless some drug lord decides to clean the change out of his sofa cushions in order to pay cash for a VLJ, the vast majority of them will be financed and therefore insured.

The underwriters are already considering requiring training for VLJ operators akin to that now required for any other multi engine aircraft, as well as recurrent training.


#19

The VLJ seems great but underwriters will make premiums higher due to the high accident rate that will follow, provided pilots don’t try to squeeze into short runways! I think Jet pilots know that just a couple of knots over Vs1 plus 10, could send you floating right off the end of short runways, they don’t slow down like the prop jobbies. Anywho thats my 2 cents


#20

Personally, I don’t believe the VLJ Doomsday scenarios one bit.

First, most of the detractors like to talk about how these airplanes will all be flying around all the time. Then they talk about how they will be flown by inexperienced pilots. In fact, these problems are mutually exclusive. The inexperienced private owner will likely fly less than 100 hours per year. If they fly more than that, then they will no longer qualify as inexperienced, will they? Now, these planes will also be used by air taxi services who will be putting 500 plus hours per year on them.

The air taxi is going to fly into the airport with the tower for the same reason everyone else does, convenience. They would choose the other field only to avoid extreme traffic. If they do the latter, they are actually solving a problem, not causing one.

So, let’s say we now have 15 IFR ops into the non-towered field. My experience is that all us piston guys flying touch and goes are usually pretty accomodating when we are VFR. When it’s IFR, we are not flying the pattern. The VLJ is either safe for the field or it’s not. The big doomsday here is that a few owner pilots may go off the end or miss the approach more than they did in their Baron? Why? because the pro isn’t going to fly in there IFR due to insurance and policy.

The plan is for the VLJ to be safer due to a better autopilot and glass cockpit making the new GPS WAAS based approach even safer than the old analog panel on an ILS. So really, we may see a few rich guys land long and end up off the end. Ya, that’s bad, but no doomsday.

Lastly, what people need to realize is that it will not be the VLJ’s chainging the airport use. It’s gonna be the majors. As prices rise, fewer people will fly which will cause prices to rise MORE (aviation math). I believe this will lead to more SWA type flights, and less hub and spoke operations. When more business people are flying charter and air taxi, they will be subsidizing less and less leisure travelers and less planes will be coming and going at O’hare. At least the growth will flatten. The world is not static.

You read it here first :slight_smile: