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ronh831
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 12
Location: Hickory, North Carolina
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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 Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject: more pictures posted without permission. |
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I have noticed several pictures on this site that were taken by me and posted to http://www.airport-data.com.
They have been resposted by a user named cclambert07.
I would have been very happy to share these photos, and I love flightaware...
but I guess this user didn't want to share as he ripped the copyright notice right off the bottom of the picture.
What is with that?
Some type of action needs to be taken by the admin of this site.
This is not a practice that should be allowed to continue.
I know you can remove the images, but will not the offender continue to take my photos?
Time to enforce the rules of posting.
Thank you for addressing this issue as soon as possible.
Regards,
Bluedharma |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:12 am Post subject: FlightAware Policy? |
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Greetings to everyone.
I have not seen anyone respond to my question, so ... I will try to ask it another way.
What is this sites policy regarding the posting of images that currently have a copyright on them?
Is there a policy and no enforcement?
I know I can submit the problem to Flightaware admin, and it may...perhaps may be resolved...
But I do not think it is something I should police on a daily basis.
I have several photos on airport-data.com that were taken by an individual on FlighAware and posted with the details I had listed.
Is this common practice here?
I am not the only airport-data.com user that has had this issue.
I would love to hear from anyone who supports the taking of photos and posting without permission as I am at a loss to understand why they would do this.
Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me.
Best Regards, |
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dcgjedde
FlightAware Member
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 521
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| I've noticed several photographs with the Airliners.net watermark emblazoned across them posted here, without giving proper credit to the photographer. They may have been posted by the photographer, but this individual should have had the original picture in their possession, without the watermark. I believe that this site could require a screening of photographs before they were posted, perhaps by volunteers. This is what Airliners.net does, and look at the quality of their photos over the quality of FlightAware Photos. |
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pika1000
Charter Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 2218
Location: KTUL/KRVS via BFL/MIT
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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FlightAware > airliners.net....nuff said.
The main purpose of FA is NOT photos, so comparing the two is ridiculous. Besides, if the poster doesn't take the copyright mark or your name off of it, and they aren't claiming that they took the picture, then consider it free advertising and move on with your life. Life is more than some pictures of airplanes. |
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damiross
New FlightAware Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: -3339
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| pika1000 wrote: | FlightAware > airliners.net....nuff said.
The main purpose of FA is NOT photos, so comparing the two is ridiculous. Besides, if the poster doesn't take the copyright mark or your name off of it, and they aren't claiming that they took the picture, then consider it free advertising and move on with your life. Life is more than some pictures of airplanes. |
Amen, brother! Quite frankly, if FlightAware was to do away with pictures, I wouldn't shed a single tear.
I am also getting tired of these people bitching about their precious photo showing up here. Guess what? If you don't want your picture posted all over the Internet then don't post it at all on the Internet.
This doesn't mean I think people should post a picture as their own. It does mean that if you are going to post a picture that's not yours then give credit where it is due. |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| damiross wrote: | | pika1000 wrote: | FlightAware > airliners.net....nuff said.
The main purpose of FA is NOT photos, so comparing the two is ridiculous. Besides, if the poster doesn't take the copyright mark or your name off of it, and they aren't claiming that they took the picture, then consider it free advertising and move on with your life. Life is more than some pictures of airplanes. |
Amen, brother! Quite frankly, if FlightAware was to do away with pictures, I wouldn't shed a single tear.
I am also getting tired of these people bitching about their precious photo showing up here. Guess what? If you don't want your picture posted all over the Internet then don't post it at all on the Internet.
This doesn't mean I think people should post a picture as their own. It does mean that if you are going to post a picture that's not yours then give credit where it is due. |
I am sorry that your getting tired of people bitching... but I post the pictures on airport-data.com because I love aircraft.
And I would love to share with FlightAware, but this Jerk decided to rip the "copyright" right off the bottom of the picture. He went out of his way to do that.
So is it ok to bitch now pika1000?
pika1000, your right... they should take the photos off of flightaware.
http://www.airport-data.com/images/aircrafts/small/102/102988.jpg
http://flightaware.com/photos/view/photo/176456-25b75fe0f10703fba6d8b33c85a425676c5a36d5;size=full;user=cclambert07;o=94
Damiross,
So yeah, I guess your right. If I don't want it stolen, I should not post it.
And it I don't want my car stolen, then I should not buy a car.
Nice attitude.
The reason I am bitching is because I take photos of aircraft,
and at times the pilot stops by and asks me to take them off line later on. I don't know why they do it... maybe he is hiding something...
It really does not matter, I take the photos off airport-data.com.
Now if Flightaware members are stealing my photos, how do I get them offline?
I am not the only one who has been dealing with this.
http://www.airport-data.com/forums/topic891.html
Damiross,sorry but you have the wrong attitude.
You don't say people should play nice and give credit, then say you don't give a rats-ass.
Damiross, I am sure Flightaware has better standards, it is just too bad that you don't represent it.
Thanks for taking the time to share your point of view. |
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damiross
New FlightAware Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: -3339
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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In an ideal world, people would respect each other, including their pictures. It's not an ideal world so it is to be expected that people will post pictures and not give credit. I am NOT condoning this. I'm just pointing out that is the way it is.
It wouldn't bother me if someone took a picture of mine from the Internet without my expressed permission and posted it on FlightAware, as long as credit was given.
Not being a lawyer and not having even played one in a movie and not having stayed in a Holiday Inn Express, I was wondering about what legal recourse person has in asking you to remove a picture of his aircraft from the web but you don't remove it. It seems to me if the aircraft is on public property (e.g an airport) then there's no legal way for him to demand you take the picture off. It would be similar to posting pictures of any other objects on public property.
Of course, you probably take them off to be courtesy but I was just curious what could happen if you decided not to. |
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mduell
FlightAware Staff
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 3145
Location: FAWHQ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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BlueDharma,
Sorry I didn't reply to you the other day; I thought I flagged your post for a reply but apparently I didn't.
When we see photos with copyright notices or watermarks, we remove them. As I said on the first page of this thread, if you provide a link to the image on our site and another site (with copyright/watermark), we'll remove them too. I removed the one photo you provided links for. |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Damiross,
Thank you for your response.
Really the person asking for removal has no "legal" right to make me do it.
My photos of aircraft are not of the FBO, but only aircraft that are in public airspace.
However, I do have an agreement with the local airport that I show courtesy to pilots who request that their photos are removed.
If I show that courtesy, I am included on possible events that would provide me with more photo opportunities.
If I don't, then I may be forgotten in the phone calls that will be made regarding certain desirable aviation events.
The main goal is for me not to bring any heat onto the airport authority that has been very gracious in allowing me to take pictures around their area.
We don't live in an ideal world, but I would like to show courtesy to the pilots and the airport authority even if it means nothing in the long run.
I think it is a great compliment that my photos have been selected to be shown by this user on Flightaware to represent the aircraft.
But to take off the copyright that is put on to the bottom by Airport-data.com is wrong.
I only agreed to Airport-data.com's rules for posting... not Flightaware.
Flightaware is not about photos... so I have not posted them here.
Why should someone else post them without my knowledge?
This is something that affects the reputation of Flightaware in a negative way.
I am having a hard time understanding why some FlightAware members
care very little about this issue. |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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damiross
New FlightAware Member
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: -3339
Location: Castro Valley, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| BlueDharma wrote: | | But I don't think it should be up to me to police this site. |
Geez! It's not up to the FlightAware staff to police the photos.
With hundreds, if not thousands, of pictures on FlightAware, do you truly expect the FlightAware staff to look at each and every picture and then search the web for the picture?
If you are so concerned that your pictures might appear someplace other than where you posted them then please do yourself a service and remove all of your pictures from the Internet.
I think the current system of photographers identifying their purloined pictures is the best system.
Why don't you volunteer to police the pictures. Look at each picture uploaded to FlightAware then go to each of the gazillion sites that have aviation photos on them. Then, look at each picture to determine if it was wrongly uploaded.
| BlueDharma wrote: | | Are you going to suspend the user that has been doing this? |
There should be a system in place where a person is prohibited from uploading pictures. I don't know about suspending the person from FlightAware, though. |
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pika1000
Charter Member
Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 2218
Location: KTUL/KRVS via BFL/MIT
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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BlueDharma,
I agree 100% that if the copyright mark is taken off, you should have the photo removed. However, unless you taking pictures of aircraft is your sole source of income, is it really worth the fight? They are pictures. Again, if the poster is taking credit, sure, have the photo removed, but if the mark is left on the photo, and someone put it on FA, again, think of it as free advertising and really think if it is worth the fight.
All of that being said, I believe that the vast majority of complaints have centered around the same poster you mentioned. I don't think, as a poster on the forums, he has been around in a while, and when he was, he typically complained about FA (again, not taking the time to look up all of the posts, just going off of memory, so I could be wrong). Should be be suspended from FA? No. Be stripped of the rights to post photos? Absolutely.
I am on the other end of the deal. There is a picture out there of the plane I regularly fly in, and is owned by a family member. However, because of the copyright stamp on the picture, I can't upload it to be used on the aircraft info page. Personally, I think that is crap since it is my family's aircraft, but, such is life, and it isn't worth the argument as to if I should be able to use it without the permission of the photographer (which, technically, it is a picture of me since I was in the right seat on the day the photo was taken, but that is neither here nor there).
Basically, to me, it comes down to this. The FA staff (or gurus) put the photos area up because it was a frequently requested feature, and since it is a side part of the main function of FA, it is more for the entertainment of the users than a main business function of FA. Because of that, they may not see the need to police the photo area all the time, but, as shown by mduell, if you happen to see one of your photos by chance, let them know and they will take it down. I would do it in a PM rather than on here, though.
You are right in your frustration with the poster for taking the copyright markings off the photos, but, again, unless it is a primary source of income for you, taking it beyond asking to have it taken down really isn't worth the fight. |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Damiross, thanks for the dialog on this.
| damiross wrote: | | BlueDharma wrote: | | But I don't think it should be up to me to police this site. |
Geez! It's not up to the FlightAware staff to police the photos.
With hundreds, if not thousands, of pictures on FlightAware, do you truly expect the FlightAware staff to look at each and every picture and then search the web for the picture? |
The world wide web? No.
The FlightAware site? Yes.
They are resonsible for content posted on this site. Legal action may be taken (and no one needs that...) if this continues.
This is a great site.
And yes, this is a pain.
But it is not my job to hunt down thieves.
The good news is that in this case I have clearly pointed out a current thief on this site and would expect the appropriate action taken.
| damiross wrote: |
Why don't you volunteer to police the pictures.
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I did... see http://www.airport-data.com/forums/topic891.html
Damiross do you represent the FlightAware policy, or is this just your opinion?
I would be quite disappointed if this is FlightAware's stance on photos.
If you are not FlightAware staff... then thank you for your response.  |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| pika1000 wrote: | I would do it in a PM rather than on here, though.
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Pika1000, Very nicely put.
Thank you for your response. It is quite reasonable.
I think that will be a great option. You are right... it is frustration.
Damiross... dude you need to take some PR lessons...
Thanks Pika1000. |
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mduell
FlightAware Staff
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 3145
Location: FAWHQ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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BlueDharma,
Without a copyright tag on the image, there's no reason for us to believe the user didn't take the image. We'll take action with users as necessary, including suspension. I've removed the photo you linked to. |
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NeedleNose
FlightAware Member
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 2734
Location: KOKV
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| Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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My $0.02 if anyone cares:
The problem photographers face with images appearing on FlightAware is that when somebody submits an image to FlightAware, they agree that the image becomes property of FlightAware. That means that FlightAware can do whatever they want with the image, including sell it to anyone who is interested in buying it. So when someone submits an image that isn't really their's, they are transfering the copyright which does not belong to them, and the true owner of the image loses income and recognition for their work.
While the copyright owner of an image should not have to police this site (or any other), they are the only ones who can know if an image is stolen or not. If your car is stolen, the police have no way of knowing it's stolen unless it is reported as stolen. Likewise, FlightAware has no way of knowing if an image is stolen or not. They have to assume it's not stolen because the person who posts it says it's theirs. Then again, FlightAware does take the extra measure of automatically removing images with watermarks and copyright notices.
Unlike the case of a stolen car, when you report an image as being stolen to FlightAware, you can take comfort in knowing that they have a 100% recovery rarte! 
Unfortunately, the only way to ensure that an image does not get stolen on the Internet is simply not to post it anywhere. |
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lieberma
Charter Member
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 4141
Location: KMBO - Sundowner N1943L
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| Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| NeedleNose wrote: |
While the copyright owner of an image should not have to police this site (or any other), they are the only ones who can know if an image is stolen or not. If your car is stolen, the police have no way of knowing it's stolen unless it is reported as stolen. |
Wow, what a great analogy.
The above is the way it's suppose to be as that is the common sense way, but then why are You Tube and other hosting websites required to screen the content for copyrighted material before it's posted?
Seems that the copyright attorneys have put the burden of ensuring content is not copyrighted on the hosting site and not the user?
We do live in a crazy world..... |
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BlueDharma
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 28
Location: Littleton, CO
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
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Yes, that is a great analogy. You can't know unless someone tells you.
My pictures...(the ones I know about) are gone from Flightaware.
With the copyright ripped off by cclambert it would have been impossible for them to know.
The only thing that is strange to me is that the user "cclambert07" who took them continues to have many many stolen images on his gallery.
http://flightaware.com/photos/user/cclambert07
This problem has been known about on this "thread" for quite some time. Oct 3rd???
It is not just here... but he was doing the same thing over at http://airport-data.com. Stolen content everywhere.
The admin there just removed the user and his images. Easy...
What I don't get is why his "stolen" images... (now that it is clear...and we know he is a thief) continue to sit on this site.
see: http://www.airport-data.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=2347#2347
I can not get them removed... they are not mine to remove...
but they are stolen never-the-less.
I know the http://airport-data.com admin has been sending emails to this site... but they remain.
Using the "cool analogy" (and it is a good analogy)... Once the Police know a guy steals cars... they tend to watch him... and make sure he is towing the line.
This user is no good... and clearly does not play by flightaware rules.
I don't know why copyright attorneys have put the burden of ensuring content is not copyrighted on the hosting site. But once the hosting site knows... They should clean house. Flightaware doesn't need this kind of ####.
Live the Good Life!
Bluedharma |
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lieberma
Charter Member
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 4141
Location: KMBO - Sundowner N1943L
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| BlueDharma wrote: |
I know the http://airport-data.com admin has been sending emails to this site... but they remain. |
Only the photographer can request pictures to be removed so the admin is wasting their time. The right thing the admin would need to do is to notify the photographer where their picture has been uploaded so the photographer can request the photo to be removed.
If the above website is the source of the problem, and when I say source, the location of photos, then what the website needs to do to help their users of the website is to put safeguards on downloading abilities.
The technology is out there to prevent downloading whether it be disable right click, disable the printscreen and such. I have worked with this technology on my job and it is an outstanding deterrent.
Locks are only there to keep the honest person out. If a person is that bent on getting a copy of a picture, there is nothing to prevent taking a digital pic of their screen and sharing it that way just as a burglar will break a flimsy glass window next to that locked door.
Doesn't make it even close to being right, but that is the way it is in the digital world.
Suspending a user account the way this is setup here is a very minimal deterrent since all the person needs to do is re-create a new user account and upload away..
A better method for deterring uploads is once a picture has been determined to be incorrectly uploaded due to copyright measures, the webmaster should ban any future uploads by banning the IP address from where it was uploaded.
Again only a deterrent since I know of many workarounds, but something is better then nothing.
Your concerns are valid BlueDharma, but I think it would take more brute force then just suspend an account. |
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flyboy97222
FlightAware Member
Joined: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1635
Location: N26 11'56.06 W80 07'49.99
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| Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| must be a HUGE market for airplane photos. I mean hell guys have them copyrighted. |
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TorstenHoff
FlightAware Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 118
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| Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| flyboy97222 wrote: | | must be a HUGE market for airplane photos. I mean hell guys have them copyrighted. |
You don't need to apply for copyright, your photos are protected from the moment you take them as unpublished works. Just because you take a picture and put it on the web doesn't mean that someone else can use it without your consent.
It doesn't matter if you take pictures for fun or profit, you own the rights to them, and it is a violation of both US and international law to remove the copyright notice and republish a photo without your consent. |
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Wimpy369
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
Posts: 17
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TorstenHoff
FlightAware Member
Joined: 03 Oct 2008
Posts: 118
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ppick
Joined: 14 Sep 2008
Posts: 17
Location: Shreveport, Louisiana
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