iframe header
  • Join FlightAware (Why Join?)
  • Login
  • US Flag 
01:59AM EDT

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: First customer delivery of Citation X with winglets . . .
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:30 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: Toronto
Click Here press release with photo.

Click Here Winglet-technolgy website


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:27 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 2:00 pm
Posts: 496
Location: Rockies, western US
An already sexy airplane gets some enhancement. :wink:

I saw this flying in Wichita a little more than a year ago & they look better in person than the pictures.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:55 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:00 pm
Posts: 2400
The design of the wing is efficient enough that any drag reduction/performance gain from the addition of the winglets is negligable. Word is on the inside is that it comes down to a customer perception that they must be better because so many other airplanes have them...and the look. It's all about selling airplanes...and what the customer "wants".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:32 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 4238
Location: YKM - Yakima, WA
I'm having them installed on my car.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:31 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:00 pm
Posts: 2400
wazzu90 wrote:
I'm having them installed on my car.

Yes, because just like on the Citation X...no Neon owner would go faster or be cool without them. :P

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:32 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:00 pm
Posts: 392
Location: KDSM
azav8r wrote:
The design of the wing is efficient enough that any drag reduction/performance gain from the addition of the winglets is negligable. Word is on the inside is that it comes down to a customer perception that they must be better because so many other airplanes have them...and the look. It's all about selling airplanes...and what the customer "wants".


They're making claims of performance. +15kts cruising speed, 4*C or 1200 lbs in hot/high take off capability, 150nm increased range, shorter time to climb to flight level 450, 4-5% fuel savings, etc. Are these benefits worth the cost? That's up to the owner; but there are tangible benefits beyond aesthetics(which is a benefit to some as well).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:13 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 506
I saw the X demo at NBAA in Atlanta a couple years ago. Negligible performance increase or not, that airplane was plain sexy!

I do agree that the stock X wing is the model of efficiency for a civilian airframe in cruise flight, but there is room for increased lift in hot and heavy conditions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:49 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:00 pm
Posts: 2400
EatSleepJeep wrote:
They're making claims of performance. +15kts cruising speed, 4*C or 1200 lbs in hot/high take off capability, 150nm increased range, shorter time to climb to flight level 450, 4-5% fuel savings, etc. Are these benefits worth the cost? That's up to the owner; but there are tangible benefits beyond aesthetics(which is a benefit to some as well).

That all sounds great in "marketing speak", but in real world operations on this airplane it's negligible.

And to eliminate confusion as to what they're claiming; "up to" 15 kts...which may only be achieved under certain parameters and not under all conditions. A 1,200 lb increase in MGTW (Maximum Gross Take-off Weight) which again may not always be useable depending on field length requirements. The temp increase means that the airplane will now perform at the same level in a 4*C higher ambient temp condition as it did without the winglets. When you play in the charts, it doesn't get you very much.... And a 4-5% fuel savings would take a really really really long time for most operators to have a ROI of the $415,000 winglet kit, plus the cost of installation at $178,000.

There are wing designs that the addition of winglets makes significant gains. But because of the efficient aerodynamics of the original wing design by Cessna's engineers, the X isn't one of them.

Again, from a source on the "inside" the idea of putting winglets on the X was orginally rejected because the performance gains didn't justify the costs. And because there were those internally that felt that they aesthetically detracted the the lines of the airplane. But customer feedback and the marketeers won out.


Last edited by azav8r on Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:16 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 506
azav8r wrote:
But customer feedback and the marketeers won out.


Sounds like Cessna's playbook to a T!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:34 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:00 am
Posts: 529
Who got the plane?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:13 pm 
Offline
Charter Member

Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:00 pm
Posts: 63
It's N373AB 750-0243 seen at Wichita with winglets August 13th, operator unknown (owner is Wells Fargo Bank).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: update
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:35 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: Toronto
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N373 ... /CYYR/EGSS

N373AB believe the operator is Salamair, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:20 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:00 am
Posts: 529
ukguy wrote:
It's N373AB 750-0243 seen at Wichita with winglets August 13th, operator unknown (owner is Wells Fargo Bank).


Is there a way to find out the actual operator of aircraft owned by Wells Fargo Bank? There are a lot of them.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Registrations . . .
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:59 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:00 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: Toronto
There are books like JP Biz Jets, etc., that provide some of the missing information, however there are several paid services that track the owner/operators of aircraft.

Often the lessee, lessor, and operator can all be different - and even the operator may be a subsidiary of the true owner/operator.

http://www.jetnet.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:37 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member
FlyNYC - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:00 pm
Posts: 1672
Location: Pointy end, but keeping a weary eye on the back
dcgjedde wrote:
ukguy wrote:
It's N373AB 750-0243 seen at Wichita with winglets August 13th, operator unknown (owner is Wells Fargo Bank).


Is there a way to find out the actual operator of aircraft owned by Wells Fargo Bank? There are a lot of them.


Read the post directly above yours..... :roll:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:48 am 
Offline
New FlightAware Member
damiross - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 7267
FlyNYC wrote:
dcgjedde wrote:
ukguy wrote:
It's N373AB 750-0243 seen at Wichita with winglets August 13th, operator unknown (owner is Wells Fargo Bank).


Is there a way to find out the actual operator of aircraft owned by Wells Fargo Bank? There are a lot of them.


Read the post directly above yours..... :roll:

It looks like he's asking in general if there's a way to find out who the operator is for an aircraft owned by Wells Fargo and not just this particular aircraft.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:19 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:00 pm
Posts: 916
Location: KPAE KBFI KSEA Avatar courtesy of cfijames
Yeah!!!! The HOTTEST plane on earth just beat itself!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:13 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 4238
Location: YKM - Yakima, WA
CessnaCitationX wrote:
Yeah!!!! The HOTTEST plane on earth just beat itself!


Are you going to upgrade?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:07 am 
Offline
FlightAware Member
cerberus - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:00 am
Posts: 98
Registered as Owner - Wells Fargo Bank Northwest, N.A.
Trust - FARRER & Co. in the UK
Owner - Citation Jet Investments, LLC in the UK
Operator - Salem Aviation, Saudi Arabia


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:00 am
Posts: 1
azav8r wrote:
EatSleepJeep wrote:
They're making claims of performance. +15kts cruising speed, 4*C or 1200 lbs in hot/high take off capability, 150nm increased range, shorter time to climb to flight level 450, 4-5% fuel savings, etc. Are these benefits worth the cost? That's up to the owner; but there are tangible benefits beyond aesthetics(which is a benefit to some as well).

That all sounds great in "marketing speak", but in real world operations on this airplane it's negligible.

And to eliminate confusion as to what they're claiming; "up to" 15 kts...which may only be achieved under certain parameters and not under all conditions. A 1,200 lb increase in MGTW (Maximum Gross Take-off Weight) which again may not always be useable depending on field length requirements. The temp increase means that the airplane will now perform at the same level in a 4*C higher ambient temp condition as it did without the winglets. When you play in the charts, it doesn't get you very much.... And a 4-5% fuel savings would take a really really really long time for most operators to have a ROI of the $415,000 winglet kit, plus the cost of installation at $178,000.

There are wing designs that the addition of winglets makes significant gains. But because of the efficient aerodynamics of the original wing design by Cessna's engineers, the X isn't one of them.

Again, from a source on the "inside" the idea of putting winglets on the X was orginally rejected because the performance gains didn't justify the costs. And because there were those internally that felt that they aesthetically detracted the the lines of the airplane. But customer feedback and the marketeers won out.



Interesting that it is considered a "negative" that us customers wanted better performance and appearance this time. The CX is a marvelous flying machine, and just like the Dassault family, they (Cessna) finally realized the winglets reduce drag and increase performance.: these 2 companies were the last holdouts to a good idea. Anything to make an airplane more efficient and (green) gets my vote. There should also be a lot of residual value to the winglets-anyone remember the increased value of a G III with winglets in the 80s?
I am glad Cessna listened.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:05 pm 
Offline
mduell - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:00 pm
Posts: 4715
Location: FAWHQ
gomore wrote:
Interesting that it is considered a "negative" that us customers wanted better performance and appearance this time. The CX is a marvelous flying machine, and just like the Dassault family, they (Cessna) finally realized the winglets reduce drag and increase performance.: these 2 companies were the last holdouts to a good idea. Anything to make an airplane more efficient and (green) gets my vote. There should also be a lot of residual value to the winglets-anyone remember the increased value of a G III with winglets in the 80s?
I am glad Cessna listened.


It may not have just been a head-in-the-sand approach, there are engineering and economic reasons why sometimes the net benefit of adding winglets is small, zero, or negative. The spanwise lift distribution with a winglet generally results in larger wing root bending stress, so designs without much margin available require reinforcement. See Airbus' ongoing saga with A32S winglets; I think they're on their 5th attempt now to find a viable winglet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:58 pm 
Offline
FlightAware Member

Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:00 pm
Posts: 916
Location: KPAE KBFI KSEA Avatar courtesy of cfijames
wazzu90 wrote:
CessnaCitationX wrote:
Yeah!!!! The HOTTEST plane on earth just beat itself!


Are you going to upgrade?

I might just get two, one to fly and the other to keep clean and look at! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
iframe sidebar


 

Airport Tracker/Info


-or-