Live Flight Tracking

How accurate are arrival and departure times for private corporate aircraft? does flying into a FBO verses a major airport make a difference in the accuracy of the flight data for arrivals and departures?

The arrival and departure times in FlightAware are the wheels-down and wheels-up time. This applies to all aircraft, not just corporate.

Not sure what you mean by "flying into a FBO verses a major airport." Do you mean flying into an airport that handles only general aviation aircraft as opposed to those that also have airline service?

Until you get a response from someone in the know here at Flight Aware, I would say arrival and departures are accurate within 5-15 minutes. There would be a couple of exceptions.
1). If the a/c's track is dropped by the center when they freq. them to approach control and they are in the terminal environment it will show the end of their flight. The aircraft is still inbound talking to approach control.
2). Their track might get dropped if they are 10 miles from the field if the center is the acting approach controller and the a/c cancels ifr and proceeds vfr. The aircraft hasn't landed quite yet the system will show the end of it's flight 10 miles from the field.
3). Departures might come off vfr from a smaller airport not yet in the system until their are 10 miles from the field. It will show them beginning their flight even though they had departed minutes ago.

Landing at a smaller airport vs a major doesn't matter with the exceptions mentioned above.

You can try linking I think it's www,liveatc.net listen to the tower at a certain airport issue taxiing instructions to an a/c which lands and then watch it on "live tracking" here on Flight Aware.

Enjoy!
Clay

Sounds like you may be confusing the arrival/depature times with the delay times.

The handy-dandy Questions/Answers link available at the top of every page here in FlightAware says there is a delay of abou6 6 minutes.

The arrival/departure times are the actual times the aircraft lands or takes flights, not the time it arrives/leaves the FBO, terminal, or other place on the field. These are hard time unless there is a computer error.

damiross wrote:
"The arrival/departure times are the actual times the aircraft lands or takes flights"

So how does that work? If someone took off vfr or terminated the ifr prior to landing, how does the system know what time the a/c departed or arrived?

I just read the part about the 6 minutes, thanks. I just took a wag on the 5-15 minutes part.

Clay

VFR flights aren't tracked.

The time the IFR was terminated would be considered a landing although it actually isn't. Ditto for departures - I've seen many cases where the flight "departed" yet it was in the air already.

The data is delayed 5-6 minutes, so you won't see an arrivals until 5-6 minutes after it occurs. The accuracy of the arrival time varies; it's generally better at a major airport (often within a minute) than out in the boonies (can be ~15 minutes off). You can check the altitude in the tracklog to get an idea of how reasonable the arrival time is.

Why is this Mark? Is it because of the way the IFR is cancelled via FSS and the time it takes FSS to contact ATC when the pilot cancels on the ground without any ATC services to go through?

I would think that airborne cancellations would be a slight descrepancy as compared to major airports especially if the pilot reports airport in sight and cancels.

Allen

You are omitting one thing. Don't forget about approach controllers showing arrived which stops tracking. The IFR was not terminated, and is not terminated until tower cancels it.



Do you have any flight examples on this? I have not seen this myself.

Anytime I have seen tracking (in the air as you describe above), the status shows enroute. Once ATC picks up my IFR, I am in the system and tracking picks up accordingly once my wheels leave terra firma.

Allen

You're right. I was thinking that once it was canceled then it was VFR from that point on.



Here's an example: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N44H ... 180020/L67

The tracking begins with a departure from LKV18002, which I interpret 20 miles from the VOR on the 180 radial.

Here's another one: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CTA5 ... /KFMG/KEKO
The KFMG I'm taking to mean the FMG (Mustang) VOR which is near Reno.

I can't find too many other examples but, if I recall correctly, most of the ones I have seen were in the west.

Ok, correct on the above.

What has happened, is that this is a typical air filed IFR flight plan or "pop up" http://flightaware.com/about/faq.rvt#popupifr Pilot may have filed through FSS, or ATC if ATC had the time for the request.

I'd suspect, it shows departed even though they are airborne until everything coordinates and tracking is established (maybe that lag time factored in).



The other flight CTA501 shows arrived naturally so I can't see the filed plan, but if it displayed like N44HT while in the air, then it probably is the same thing, it was a pop up IFR.

Allen

Looking at the history of the flight, it is usually an RNO/EKO roundtrip. Perhaps it's taking off VFR from RNO and then decides to go IFR when it hits FMG VOR?

I can't explain that one. We've seen situations where there are two airline flights into a major airport within minutes of each other and one ends with a cancellation and the other ends with an arrival at about the same point.

NAS-MD-311 may contain the explanation, but it's pretty heavy reading.

I would imagine it has to do with when the radar facility picks you up on radar and when they loose you, not wheels up or the "system" waiting for you to cancel ifr. I would imagine you are correct to assume this happens more in the hilly terain out west vs the flatlands of america where radar coverage is more limited. The track was "probably" all done ifr, but radar coverage only occured where there was tracking.

On the nevada example, this is not to say he wasn't vfr on Departure or Approach, but explains to me the lack of track on departure and arrival. Otherwise, why would the guy file ifr just for their enroute phase?

Interesting...

Radar coverage doesn't affect flight aware tracking. See http://discussions.flightaware.com/view ... hlight=mcb



The following is with the stipulation I haven't had a chance to gander at the airspace around the airports in question, but in a general sense....

There could be many reasons, one being VFR in the beginning of a flight, the airspace restrictions isn't as bad, such as dodging MOAs. VFR traffic can go through MOA's, where as IFR cannot IF the MOA is "hot". If it's cold, IFR can go through MOA's.

Looking at the altitude, on Damiross's flight, he maintained VFR altitudes which makes me think he wanted "VFR on top" which is much more flexible then a standard IFR flight. Plenty of discussions in the past about VFR on top as well. Since this flight does it so regularily, he could have a helping hand with ATC getting him in the system easily.

Having never done VFR on top, I don't think that traffic can go through a hot MOA since it is an IFR clearance, maybe somebody else can chime in.

Allen

Tracon can also issue a cancellation as soon as you accept a "Visual Approach" even if you are 10+ miles out. I've seen that on my trips before.

Sometimes; other times they'll issue an estimated arrival 15 minutes in the future.

In my experiences, I'd suspect ONLY if you cancel the IFR after you accept the visual, will tracon cancel it 10 miles out.

They can't cancel it just based on you accepting the visual, you have to either cancel the IFR with center, approach controller or FSS after landing.

(I.E center, I would like to cancel my IFR and center replies IFR cancellation received squawk VFR, have a good day or they more often then not will advise you to "cancel IFR this frequency or FSS after landing" at an uncontrolled airport without a remote transmitter to a nearby ATC component.

By the time I got doen reading the 1269 pages, they would have two more pages of change history to add to their 11 pages of change history. Glad I am not printing this puppy!

Thanks for the link!

Allen

In a Tracon environment they can and do. When you accept a "Visual Approach" you have accepted responsibility for your own traffic separation, and alleviated the controller of that responsibility. You have essentially cancelled IFR and become VFR traffic in (my example Class B) controlled airspace.

http://www2.faa.gov/airports_airtraffic/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0704.html#GhI17cJACK

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/d ... visual.htm

You don't "cancel IFR" when arriving at a controlled airport in class B C or D. At a controlled airport, ATC will do that as you describe and you don't use the words cancel IFR. That's not what I am talking about.

I am talking about uncontrolled airports in my original post. TRACON cannot cancel it, pilots cancel it. I can be in Memphis Bravo airspace and flying into Olive Branch MS, which is uncontrolled and accept a visiual. See
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part91-169-FAR.shtml for pilots responsibilities on cancellation, scroll down to the bottom 2D.



Agree with you on the seperation requirements, but at UNcontrolled airport, acceptance of a visual does not relieve the pilot of cancelling the IFR flight plan. See above FAR reference.

If a pilot does not cancel the IFR, that airport is essentially shut down and the next pilot cannot be cleared for an approach to that airport is under IFR conditions.

I have been that "next plane" when my own airport was IFR conditions and the plane in front of me failed to cancel, and I got put in a hold until ATC verfied the plane safely landed (or accounted for) by a landline call to the FBO. I asked for a contact approach and approach denied me. VFR was not an option with 700 foot ceilings.

Allen

Come on now Allen..... Your missing my point and my example. When I accept a "Visual Approach" when arriving at my home Class B airport I have essentially cancelled IFR and become VFR traffic, without having to say "cancel IFR"... I've done it hundreds of times at my home airport and I'm very familiar with their ATC operations there, and that Tracon's covered airports. It's just the way it works in that environment as cited in the references I provided.

I'm not trying to debate this with you, I am sharing information pertaining to the OP's question from my experience and first hand knowledge relating to the type of flying that I do. Looking at my flight tracks, 9 times out of 10, the track line ends either on my base leg or extended final right about at the point where I have accepted the "visual approach". When I accept the "visual approach" the Tracon controller makes his/her entry in the computer, and a cancellation message is recorded in the system...then subsequently picked up by FA.

And yes, it is different than when I go to a non-towered/uncontrolled airport and either "cancel IFR" by stating so with Center when airborne, or cancelling on the ground with Center or FSS.

Also please note mduell's response to one of my other posts above.... Bolding is mine for emphasis.

I think the problem was that when you "quoted me" saying the opposite of what I was saying that I took it as if you were rebutting what I was saying (just look up and you will see by your response of "they can and do", not "supplementing my response", so it wasn't that your point was being missed on my end.

Like I said earlier, "like you said" at controlled airports, I know exactly what you were talking about, and never contradicted what you say about controlled airports as I was continuously referring to uncontrolled in all my posts.

Heck, at controlled airports, personally never thought or even cared when ATC cancelled my IFR, I just was happy to make it through all the frequency changes compared to uncontrolled airports.

The miscommunication as I see it was we were not clear on the type of airports which as we all can see does change the answer 180 degrees (cancel vs not needing to cancel)..

Allen