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 Post subject: Meridian Operating Expenses
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:16 am 
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ymkg - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:00 pm
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In general, what would be the fuel cost for a round trip between Tampa and Charleston, SC in a new Piper Meridian with 6 adults. I'm sure there are lot's of variables, but if someone can give me an idea I would appreciate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Meridian Operating Expenses
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:18 am 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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Location: Corona CA (KAJO)
ymkg wrote:
In general, what would be the fuel cost for a round trip between Tampa and Charleston, SC in a new Piper Meridian with 6 adults. I'm sure there are lot's of variables, but if someone can give me an idea I would appreciate it.


If you gotta ask...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:46 am 
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ymkg - FlightAware user avatar

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Well, I can go commercial and pay for my four employees to go with me (having to stop at Hartsfield). Or, I have a client with a new Meridian who would probaby love to take us. Just tryng to figure out what it will cost him as I'd reimburse.

But thanks for the hepful feedback fholbert...

Anyone else? Thanks


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:09 am 
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damiross - FlightAware user avatar

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Eclipse has a comparison chart between its jet and several turboprops, including the Meridian. It indicates about $400 an hour http://www.eclipsejet.com/files/pdf/Economics.pdf

You can use the keywords piper, meridian, operating, costs in Google to find more data.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:14 am 
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185Driver - FlightAware user avatar

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just a SWAG - about 45-50gal/hr $4-$5/gal at 220mph


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:16 am 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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ymkg wrote:
Well, I can go commercial and pay for my four employees to go with me (having to stop at Hartsfield). Or, I have a client with a new Meridian who would probaby love to take us. Just tryng to figure out what it will cost him as I'd reimburse.

But thanks for the hepful feedback fholbert...

Anyone else? Thanks


By law he can't charge you more than a equal share of fuel only. He can't charge you for any operating expenses beyond fuel, operating expenses will far exceed fuel. Example, if your cost for 5 employees is $200, his cost will be about $500.

A Piper Meridian with 6 adults with and bags sounds kind of heavy too.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:37 am 
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wazzu90 - FlightAware user avatar

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According to the handy dandy little flight planner (located to your left) it's about 1:25 and $280 for fuel, if you can get off the ground.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:44 am 
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185Driver - FlightAware user avatar

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fholbert wrote:

By law he can't charge you more than a equal share of fuel only. He can't charge you for any operating expenses beyond fuel, operating expenses will far exceed fuel. Example, if your cost for 5 employees is $200, his cost will be about $500.

A Piper Meridian with 6 adults with and bags sounds kind of heavy too.


Actually he can charge you for 1/2 of the prorated expenses of the trip. Including Fuel, Oil, Airport fees, Engine & Prop reserves, etc. RE:FAR61.113

So if it cost $500/hr dry and fuel is $150/hr; he can charge you $325/hr plus half of any handling fees that might be incurred.

But Frank brings up a great point: 6 guys and bags in Meridian??
I'd like to see that W/B sheet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:58 am 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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185Driver wrote:
Actually he can charge you for 1/2 of the prorated expenses of the trip. Including Fuel, Oil, Airport fees, Engine & Prop reserves, etc. RE:FAR61.113


I don't think that's correct.

~The fuel split is for each passenger and you must count yourself. In this case the passengers can pay for 5/6 of the fuel.

~No operating expenses or fees at all other than fuel.

~The pilot must have a reason to go OTHER THAN giving someone a ride.

A rental is different than owned aircraft.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:03 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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ymkg wrote:
I have a client with a new Meridian

Firstly...why aren't you asking your "client"?

Secondly...you're opening a can of worms by asking in a public forum.

Thirdly...because of rules changes, it would be considered an illegal charter...unless your "client" and his aircraft are on an Air Carrier Certificate...to give your "client" any reimbursement as your intended flight does not meet the guise of FAA Regulations, (Part 91.146(b)(7)). You may review the rules HERE.


Last edited by azav8r on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:04 pm 
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185Driver - FlightAware user avatar

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fholbert wrote:
185Driver wrote:
Actually he can charge you for 1/2 of the prorated expenses of the trip. Including Fuel, Oil, Airport fees, Engine & Prop reserves, etc. RE:FAR61.113


I don't think that's correct.


It's correct, read the regulation.
It's also easily Googled and you will find a lot of articles by aviation & corporate lawyers that explain it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:10 pm 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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185Driver wrote:
It's correct, read the regulation.
It's also easily Googled and you will find a lot of articles by aviation & corporate lawyers that explain it.


If you believe AOPA legal we are both wrong. Fees yes,

If the pilot carries two passengers, the rental expense must be split three ways. A flight in which the pilot does not participate in sharing the expenses will not be considered as a bona-fide shared-expense flight.

What expenses may be shared? The regulation says "operating expenses." There is no doubt that the rental cost of an aircraft may be shared. What about an owned aircraft? In the few instances where the FAA has given opinions to pilots, it has attempted to limit expenses to direct operating costs, such as gas, oil, landing and parking fees away from home base, and the like, but not such prorated costs as insurance, maintenance, inspection, reserve for engine and propeller overhaul, and base hangar or tiedown rent. The FAA takes this conservative approach because it wants to ensure that there is no profit motive to a shared-expense flight. A profit motive would make the flight commercial.


More here if you want to read it.
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot ... c9207.html


Last edited by fholbert on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:11 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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185Driver wrote:
Actually he can charge you for 1/2 of the prorated expenses of the trip. Including Fuel, Oil, Airport fees, Engine & Prop reserves, etc. RE:FAR61.113

In this case technically he can't. Part 61.113 refers to what a "pilot" can do...BUT, only if the flight meets the operating rules of Part 91. And this flight would not. That's the GOTCHA.

Remember...Parts 61 and 91 cover very different areas.


Last edited by azav8r on Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:19 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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Good find Frank...but again the operating rules of Part 91 have changed recently because of all of the illegal charters that have been prosecuted. Part 91.146 is very specific that reimbursement must be for "the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event.", and has been amended as recently as last month.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:23 pm 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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azav8r wrote:
Good find Frank...but again the operating rules of Part 91 have changed recently because of all of the illegal charters that have been prosecuted. Part 91.146 is very specific that reimbursement must be for "the benefit of a charitable, nonprofit, or community event.
", and has been amended as recently as last month.



So what can be shared? Would you still agree with the below, it was written in 1992?

The concept of sharing also means that the pilot must be going on the flight for his or her own purpose and not merely to transport the passengers. A classic example is the college student flying home for the weekend who advertises on a college bulletin board for passengers who are willing to share expenses to go along on the flight. The pilot is obviously taking the trip for his or her own purpose of visiting home.

Frank Holbert
http://160knots.com


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:25 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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fholbert wrote:
Would you still agree with the below, it was written in 1992?

Nope...because the rules and their application have changed a lot since that opinion was written in '92. See my post above about Part 91.146 and then look at 91.147.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:27 pm 
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fholbert - FlightAware user avatar

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azav8r wrote:
fholbert wrote:
Would you still agree with the below, it was written in 1992?

Nope...because the rules and their application have changed a lot since that opinion was written in '92. See my post above about Part 91.146 and then look at 91.147.


I was kinda hoping you would do a cut and paste underlining the parts which you feel apply.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:28 pm 
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mduell - FlightAware user avatar

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FlightAware Flight Planning has a sample Meridian available.

TPA-CHS direct on 382lb fuel @ FL250.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:46 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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fholbert wrote:
I was kinda hoping you would do a cut and paste underlining the parts which you feel apply.

Your killen' me Frank. :lol:

Okay, Part 91.147 Passenger carrying flights for compensation or hire.
says -

Each Operator conducting passenger-carrying flights for compensation or hire must meet the following requirements unless all flights are conducted under 91.146.

(a) For the purposes of this section and for drug and alcohol testing, Operator means any person conducting nonstop passenger-carrying flights in an airplane or helicopter for compensation or hire in accordance with 119.1(e)(2), 135.1(a)(5), or 121.1(d), of this chapter that begin and end at the same airport and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that airport.

(b) An Operator must comply with the safety provisions of part 136, subpart A of this chapter, and apply for and receive a Letter of Authorization from the Flight Standards District Office nearest to its principal place of business by September 11, 2007.

(c) Each application for a Letter of Authorization must include the following information:

(1) Name of Operator, agent, and any d/b/a (doing-business-as) under which that Operator does business;

(2) Principal business address and mailing address;

(3) Principal place of business (if different from business address);

(4) Name of person responsible for management of the business;

(5) Name of person responsible for aircraft maintenance;

(6) Type of aircraft, registration number(s), and make/model/series; and

(7) An Antidrug and Alcohol Misuse Prevention Program registration.

(d) The Operator must register and implement its drug and alcohol testing programs in accordance with part 120 of this chapter.

(e) The Operator must comply with the provisions of the Letter of Authorization received.




In other words...one has to have an "Operator" LOA from the FAA, unless reference the bolded part above. As such, the flight must then comply with the definitions of Part 91.146. -

(a) Definitions. For purposes of this section, the following definitions apply:

Charitable event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a charitable organization recognized by the Department of the Treasury whose donors may deduct contributions under section 170 of the Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. Section 170).

Community event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of any local or community cause that is not a charitable event or non-profit event.

Non-profit event means an event that raises funds for the benefit of a non-profit organization recognized under State or Federal law, as long as one of the organization's purposes is the promotion of aviation safety.




And only then can there be reimbursement as provided under 91.146(b)(7). -

Reimbursement of the operator of the airplane or helicopter is limited to that portion of the passenger payment for the flight that does not exceed the pro rata cost of owning, operating, and maintaining the aircraft for that flight, which may include fuel, oil, airport expenditures, and rental fees;


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:52 am 
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maxneb - FlightAware user avatar

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Location: KMLU--N6074J
I believe the man just wanted to know how much fuel it would take to fly the leg. He didnt want lesson 3 for a student pilot! A new PA-46 T will burn approx. 40-45 gallons per hour at FL 250 and above. On a bad day you will have 230KTS GS so figure that for time. Dont forget the Pilot,someone has to pay him to. If you had to pay the total op cost it would be around 600 to $800 per hr. So if you can pay for fuel you are getting a good deal. I havent looked at the actual miles but I bet they will burn about 400 to 500 lbs of fuel which is about 60 to 80 gallons, at 5.00 pg thats $300 to $400 worth of fuel.[/b]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:45 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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maxneb wrote:
I believe the man just wanted to know how much fuel it would take to fly the leg.

Well max the OP also indicated the purpose of the inquiry, which by doing so the OP has now learned that the idea is not a prudent one. The idea would expose the company, its employees, and the aircraft owner, to a plethora of liabilities. Yes the initial question resulted in more than was bargained for, but information that must be taken into consideration all the same.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:01 pm 
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maxneb - FlightAware user avatar

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I just love getting you guys all worked up :!:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:09 pm 
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azav8r - FlightAware user avatar

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maxneb wrote:
I just love getting you guys all worked up :!:

Worked up?.... And what makes you think that you did that?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:30 pm 
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maxneb wrote:
I just love getting you guys all worked up :!:


You wanna see these guys worked up you'll need to find some racy pics of Satine! Or perhaps some assorted cocktails and beers....... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:04 pm 
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FlyNYC wrote:
You wanna see these guys worked up you'll need to find some racy pics of Satine! Or perhaps some assorted cocktails and beers....... :wink:

Now you're talkin'.... 8)


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