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 Post subject: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:29 am 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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Would it be possible on the next or future revision of FlightAware dump1090 to have airport ground vehicles to be depicted as such?? Currently, they are shown as aircraft.

If so, vehicles seen and positions reported should NOT count toward one's statistical 30 day ranking.

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:56 am 
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obj - FlightAware user avatar

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Ground vehicles often do not identify themselves as such.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:03 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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obj wrote:
Ground vehicles often do not identify themselves as such.


That's unfortunate.

I would think that the ICAO or FAA would require it.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 12:26 pm 
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Why? Collision avoidance is needed for all vehicles.
It doesn't matter if they are ground vehicles or aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:48 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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jonhawkes2030 wrote:
Why? Collision avoidance is needed for all vehicles.
It doesn't matter if they are ground vehicles or aircraft.


I assume that local control, (i.e. tower controller/ground controller) would want to distinguish between an airport ops vehicle, fire apparatus, sweeper, plow, EMT, law enforcement etc v.s. an aircraft.

I could be mistaken.

Regardless, because I live within 1/4 mile of KFLL, my monthly statistics are skewed unfairly v.s. other participants whose setup is not in close proximity of an airport where they would, otherwise, pick up airport ground traffic.


Last edited by chrisjohnston50 on Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:01 pm 
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obj - FlightAware user avatar

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It is common for that distinction to be made in a way that is specific to the airport - perhaps using a reserved address range, or particular callsigns. Vehicles don't move from airport to airport so often so it doesn't have to be a globally-agreed system. Setting the ADS-B category field doesn't seem so common.

You could look at your aircraft.json for the "category" field to see how effective it would be in your area for distinguishing vehicles from aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:52 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 wrote:
jonhawkes2030 wrote:
Why? Collision avoidance is needed for all vehicles.
It doesn't matter if they are ground vehicles or aircraft.


I would think that local control (tower controller/ground controller) would want to distinguish between an airport ops vehicle, fire apparatus, sweeper, plow, EMT, law enforcement etc v.s. an aircraft.

I could be mistaken.

Regardless, because I live within 1/4 mile of KFLL, my monthly statistics are skewed unfairly v.s. other participants whose setup is not in close proximity of an airport where they would, otherwise, pick up ground traffic..


Airport vehicles do show up with their own call sign tags on an airport ADS-B / ASDE-X software for the actual airport use.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:34 pm 
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mkeflyer wrote:
Airport vehicles do show up with their own call sign tags on an airport ADS-B / ASDE-X software for the actual airport use.

Cars on nearby freeways also show up on ASDE-X ;-)
(see e.g. the northeast corner of KIAH on https://flightaware.com/adsb/coverage#surface-coverage)


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:45 pm 
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obj wrote:
mkeflyer wrote:
Airport vehicles do show up with their own call sign tags on an airport ADS-B / ASDE-X software for the actual airport use.

Cars on nearby freeways also show up on ASDE-X ;-)
(see e.g. the northeast corner of KIAH on https://flightaware.com/adsb/coverage#surface-coverage)


That's a Farm-to-Market road not a freeway! Freeways have at least 19 lanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:14 am 
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obj - FlightAware user avatar

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I could call it a dual carriageway and really confuse everyone..


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 8:14 am 
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obj wrote:
I could call it a dual carriageway and really confuse everyone..

Checked KBOS ASDE-X coverage - looks like floating carriages are being picked up as well. Not sure about under water vehicles :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 7:11 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil - FlightAware user avatar

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Here in PHL, all ground vehicles have an ICAO code that converts to N7xxXB. Most of them even ident their actual vehicle number. Airports ops are A9, A10, A209, A219, A229 and others. There's also MEDIC30 and F8 and F10 of ARFF. I forget what all the snow removal trucks use, but they all have ADS-B and show up on the map.

I modified my map to use GND as the aircraft type for any "aircraft" with XB suffix that is on the ground. Then I also used FlyingPete's custom icons (http://discussions.flightaware.com/ads-b-flight-tracking-f21/some-custom-svg-plane-icons-t37783.html), which includes a pushback tug, and linked GND to the pushback tug.

It all works pretty well. But this is all for PHL, so it may not be the same at your airport.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:35 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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Thanks for the info Huff!

Too bad this stuff isn't standardized. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:05 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil - FlightAware user avatar

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Ha! I just realized that FA is getting these from my feed and adding them as "flights"...

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N718XB
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N719XB

et al


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:13 am 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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HuffTheWeevil wrote:
Ha! I just realized that FA is getting these from my feed and adding them as "flights"...



I believe that's one of the reasons why my statistics are skewed all to hell.

Pilots forgetting to place their transponder in STANDBY after blocking in also biases the statistics.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:19 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil - FlightAware user avatar

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chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Pilots forgetting to place their transponder in STANDBY after blocking in also biases the statistics.

Actually, they're not forgetting...they're following the rules:

Quote:
14 CFR 91.225 (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

There really isn't a "standby" mode for ADS-B. You're thinking of a mode C transponder or standard mode S (w/o ADS-B), however even those should be "ON" at all times, as explained in the AIM:

Quote:
AIM 4-1-20 a. 3. Civil and military transponders should be adjusted to the “on" or normal operating position as soon as practical and remain on during all operations unless requested to change to “standby" from ATC
...
7. If operating at an airport with Airport Surface Detection Equipment - Model X (ASDE-X), transponders should be transmitting (on position) continuously with altitude reporting while moving on the airport surface.
8. Aircraft equipped with ADS-B (1090 ES or UAT) must operate the equipment in the transmit mode (on position) at all times while on any airport surface.

And in case your wondering, FLL does have ADSE-X. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:06 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Would it be possible on the next or future revision of FlightAware dump1090 to have airport ground vehicles to be depicted as such?? Currently, they are shown as aircraft.

If so, vehicles seen and positions reported should NOT count toward one's statistical 30 day ranking.

Thanks!


We are planning to use a ground vehicle icon in a future dump1090 map release. However, as already noted on this thread, this is dependent on the vehicle identifying itself as a ground vehicle "category" properly per the Mode S specifications.

There are no plans at the moment to filter ground vehicles from the statistics page.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:50 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:29 am
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ericcarlson wrote:
We are planning to use a ground vehicle icon in a future dump1090 map release. However, as already noted on this thread, this is dependent on the vehicle identifying itself as a ground vehicle "category" properly per the Mode S specifications.

There are no plans at the moment to filter ground vehicles from the statistics page.


Thanks Eric. Maybe when all aircraft are required to be ADS-B compliant, (2020?), you could include only those "aircraft" which are actively in FLIGHT mode to be included in the monthly statistics.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:13 pm 
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chrisjohnston50 - FlightAware user avatar

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HuffTheWeevil wrote:
chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Pilots forgetting to place their transponder in STANDBY after blocking in also biases the statistics.

Actually, they're not forgetting...they're following the rules:

Quote:
14 CFR 91.225 (f) Each person operating an aircraft equipped with ADS-B Out must operate this equipment in the transmit mode at all times.

There really isn't a "standby" mode for ADS-B. You're thinking of a mode C transponder or standard mode S (w/o ADS-B), however even those should be "ON" at all times, as explained in the AIM:

Quote:
AIM 4-1-20 a. 3. Civil and military transponders should be adjusted to the “on" or normal operating position as soon as practical and remain on during all operations unless requested to change to “standby" from ATC
...
7. If operating at an airport with Airport Surface Detection Equipment - Model X (ASDE-X), transponders should be transmitting (on position) continuously with altitude reporting while moving on the airport surface.
8. Aircraft equipped with ADS-B (1090 ES or UAT) must operate the equipment in the transmit mode (on position) at all times while on any airport surface.

And in case your wondering, FLL does have ADSE-X. :D


Huff,

I believe the regulations you cited only apply to aircraft/vehicles on active airport surface movement areas (e.g. taxiways and runways).

See: http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation ... o15006.pdf

Unless this has been superseded.


Last edited by chrisjohnston50 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 5:15 pm 
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obj - FlightAware user avatar

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chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Maybe when all aircraft are required to be ADS-B compliant, (2020?), you could include only those "aircraft" which are actively in FLIGHT mode to be included in the monthly statistics.

Information about aircraft on the ground is pretty useful, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:18 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil - FlightAware user avatar

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chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Huff,

I believe the regulations you cited only apply to aircraft/vehicles on active airport surface movement areas (e.g. taxiways and runways).

See: http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation ... o15006.pdf

Unless this has been superseded.


Hmm... My AIM quote was out-of-date. Here is the 2017:

Quote:
4-5-7 c. 3. ADS−B is intended for in−flight and airport surface use. ADS−B systems should be turned “on” −− and remain “on” −− whenever operating in the air and moving on the airport surface. Civil and military Mode A/C transponders and ADS−B systems should be adjusted to the “on” or normal operating position as soon as practical, unless the change to “standby” has been accomplished previously at the request of ATC.


Which mentions the entire "airport surface", not just the movement area.

And according to that SAFO you linked to, it says to leave ADS-B enabled after landing, and all the way up until parked at the gate. And also to enable it before pushback (which would typically be in non-movement areas). So that document seems to contradict itself.

But there's still the matter of being at the gate with ADS-B. That's the real debate at hand. I'm having trouble finding documentation (other than your source) that specifically talks about ADS-B at the gate.

On top of that, does anyone know if there is actually a way to disable ADS-B on an airliner (i.e. a Boeing or Airbus)? It is my impression that when a pilot puts their transponder into STBY mode, ADS-B is still transmitting as usual. Perhaps I am wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:43 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil - FlightAware user avatar

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obj wrote:
chrisjohnston50 wrote:
Maybe when all aircraft are required to be ADS-B compliant, (2020?), you could include only those "aircraft" which are actively in FLIGHT mode to be included in the monthly statistics.

Information about aircraft on the ground is pretty useful, though.


I don't think Chris is suggesting that the info be ignored, just that they aren't counted in the statistics, as it could be thought of as "cheating" for us that live close to an airport. I mean I rose to above #300 in less than a month because of my proximity.

But Chris, I don't think ADS-B sends out a "FLIGHT" mode indicator in the signal, does it?


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:57 pm 
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The transponder must be set to GND on the ground. ALT in the air. Standby is pretty much only used in the hangar/times of maintenance. Part of the cert spec is it must automatically change from ALT to GND after landing and GND to ALT when taking off.

So no, pilots shouldn't be putting the transponder to standby unless there is a real reason to do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:00 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil wrote:
On top of that, does anyone know if there is actually a way to disable ADS-B on an airliner (i.e. a Boeing or Airbus)? It is my impression that when a pilot puts their transponder into STBY mode, ADS-B is still transmitting as usual. Perhaps I am wrong.


When set to standby, there is no ADS-B transmission. When set to GND, it transmits, but with the altitude as ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Ground Vehicles
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:19 pm 
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HuffTheWeevil wrote:

I don't think Chris is suggesting that the info be ignored, just that they aren't counted in the statistics, as it could be thought of as "cheating" for us that live close to an airport. I mean I rose to above #300 in less than a month because of my proximity.


That is my intent. I enjoy watching aircraft taxiing but just don't think that our statistics should be "unfairly" skewed by them.

Quote:
But Chris, I don't think ADS-B sends out a "FLIGHT" mode indicator in the signal, does it?


I guess I should have phrased it as not being in "GROUND" mode. :D


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